Podcast Episode 35

with our guest Wally Hines

Wally Hines: JETPUBS

Bryan: 00:43 Wally, welcome to The School For Good Living.

Wally: 00:46 Thanks

Bryan: 00:46 And welcome, particularly to thee in the belly of the snake portion where we have conversations about the magic in the misery of the creative process. On my podcast, I love to talk to published authors and authors who are working to become published. And as I understand it Wally you currently fit in the latter category, is that right?

Wally: 01:08 Yeah, that’s correct.

Bryan: 01:09 Awesome. So tell me when you meet someone, and I realize this will change context to context where you are, who you’re talking with, that kind of thing, but when somebody asks who you are and what you do, how do you typically answer that?

Wally: 01:21 You know, usually I answer that question with a, what I do for a living. I think that’s a pretty typical way for a man to answer that question. You know, a woman would answer that I think more about family and children. That’s just a kind of a broad stereotype. But, uh, for me, I think it is pretty deeply intertwined in that we own a company that helps airlines and training centers. And when people ask, you know, who are you that is right up there at the top. And I suppose, uh, once, once this book is completed and pushed out, that’ll also be up at the top as one of the things that kind of defines or explains to people who I am.

Bryan: 02:00 Yeah. So as I understand your company Jet Pub, you currently publish a lot of material. It’s just, you’re not necessarily doing it as yourself to this audience that you want to be writing to. Tell me a little bit more about your company.

Wally: 02:17 Yeah, sure. So Jet Pubs, what we do is we, we help just over 600 airlines and training centers world wide with, as you mentioned, partially they’re publishing and production needs. So it turns out that airlines are really fabulous at flying airplanes from A to B, but they are not fabulous by any stretch of the imagination, um, publishing their own content. And that’s a problem because the manuals that make up an airline from a regulatory standpoint, um, and internally are always changing. They’re literally living, breathing documents with changes are happening every single day. So worldwide, we’ve never found an airline that had a real legitimate expertise in that area. So about 75% of what our company does is we fill that void for them. So we put the power of them as the subject matter experts in their hands where it belongs. And then we do a nice easy way to think of this as we do all the stuff that they’re really bad at. So we do the revisioning and the editing and the auditing and the publishing and the distribution and all those types of things. And there’s lots of companies that do some of those things in aviation, there’s especially a lot of companies that focus on the distribution piece. But we are unique in that we have a personal relationship with each airline and there’s real people actually working on the documents in the background. So there’s a lot of automation, but, but there’s a personal service piece in there as well. And then the other part that’s not related to, to the book is about the other 25% is graphical, like training aids and things like that.

Bryan: 04:01 So do you do it? The little safety cards in the back of the seat pocket?

Wally: 04:05 We have done those. Yes, we have.

Bryan: 04:07 Yeah. I, I think I looked at one of those one time, but no. Yeah. So, okay. So you’re no stranger to communicating through the written word and putting, you know, putting words and thoughts on paper in a way that matter, because clearly what you do matters to a lot of people. Um, but what we’re talking about now about you personally writing a book, it’s obviously a bit of a different, a bit of a different challenge I would, I would think. Right. But who do you want to write for and what do you want the book to do for them?

Wally: 04:39 Right. That’s it. That’s a great question to frame it that way. Um, let me start with the first way you asked it. So the book I want to write is a story or I should say am writing halfway done with writing it. Um, the book that I am writing is the story of what happened with my firstborn child and kind of the flight that ensued when we were wrongfully accused of abusing him as an infant. And who I want to write that for is I want to write it for him. And I also want to write it for the thousands and tens of thousands of families that have found themselves in that same exact spot. And one of the things that is fabulously unique, in fact I know of no other case like ours, um, is that there’s no gag order on our case. And so there are no books written on this topic from the family’s perspective because it’s technically illegal to do so. Um, and in our case, I feel like we have a bit of a responsibility to share this with the world, um, because we do have this very unique, um, thing that’s different about ours. So, and the way that came about was basically the district attorney that was overseeing our case, um, got a lot of lies from his people underneath them. Our case, got a lot of publicity from places like 20/20 and Nightline and Primetime and some local places. And so in the heat of the moment, um kind of in a fit of rage to hear one of the TV producers say it. The district attorney, um, unsealed the records and I think when he unsealed, um, you know, he thought he was going to find something different, but instead he found, you know, a lot of incompetencies and his people, a lot of lying from his people, a lot of reports that were um, you know, doctored. And, um, you know, even a letter to the county commissioners that that said that, hey, this family is well respected and well educated and we must do everything in our power to discredit them, um, to prove the integrity of child services. So I, I give you a little bit of a longer answer though to say that. That’s why I’m writing it for, but I think, you know, maybe I’m one of the only people that could actually write this book and have it see the light of day. We’ll not face a lawsuit when it came out.

Bryan: 07:12 Yeah. So we’ve got a little bit about who you are and what your company is and a little bit about what you want to write and why, but we don’t know what happened. So tell me if you will, what happened?

Wally: 07:26 Wow, that’s, that’s a long there’s a long answer there.

Bryan: 07:29 Okay. So pause real quick then.

Wally: 07:32 I’m happy to try to give you a short answer, but.

Bryan: 07:35 Let’s, let’s try that because I think, I mean in total and, and I realized what, what we’re talking about deserve as much more than five minutes, but my aspiration was to capture enough about you, your project, your story, you know, and what your challenges and what you’re going to do to overcome it. So I might have been really, really ambitious in this, but yeah, give me the thumbnail. Like what’s the, because again, and you’re going to have this challenge, right when the book comes out and you go to explain it, whatever to networks or just to communicate it online and stuff like that. So maybe this is a chance to practice. What’s the thumbnail of what happened?

Wally: 08:08 So the thumbnail of what happened is that when our first son was born, immediately he had complications and he was in intensive care for about a week afterwards. They thought that, you know, he had some fluid in his lungs, right after a week we got them out of the hospital, we moved to a brand new city. So that was a factor in this story. Um, and then a few weeks later when he was continuously unconsolable or inconsolable, he, we discovered through persistent, you know, asking, I guess I would call it of our pediatrician, that he had several bones that were healing. And so of course when that was learned, then the authorities stepped in, took him away um, immediately. We were in a position where all of a sudden we’ve lost our only child and he’s like two and a half months old. And so we went through a period there of, holy cow, how did this happen? And you also go through a period of looking at your spouse and kind of questioning them. Like, what did you do and what have you not told me? And then an interesting thing happened. He continued to fracture in the foster home. So when that happened, that was a, that was a banner day because when that happened, I remember clearly thinking, okay, something has got to be wrong here. Because it’s one thing to say we’re just stupid new parents and somehow we hurt this kid. But it’s quite another when the injuries that we’ve been accused of are happening in the foster home. So logically I was, I was thinking there’s only two options. Either were abusive and so are the foster parents, which seemed unlikely. Or something’s actually wrong with them. So then an investigation started. Um, but curiously the, the county was completely disinterested in a medical explanation. Um, even explained away the break in foster care, even though there was incontrovertible evidence that it happened there. And so without going too deep there, there are so many stories that would blow your mind, um, about things that actually happened. And so we worked our way through the system and over a period of about nine months, uh, we got to know the judge, we got to know the social worker. We got to know all the people involved with our case. And unfortunately right at the end, the case was about to be dismissed and we could go on our merry way and about two weeks prior, he refracted um, one of the sites, which is also indicative of the condition that he has. And so.

Bryan: 11:01 What, what’s the condition called, by the way?

Wally: 11:03 So the conditions called Osteogenesis Imperfecta, and thankfully he has a, the, the mildest form of that condition. So where you were, you and I would break them, break a bone, um, you’re probably not going to re break in the same spot, you know, because the heel is stronger than the bone around it. And one of, one of the symptoms of that is they re-break. And so that’s what happened. It was a re-break. And at the time, unfortunately the judge was out off the bench fighting, um, colon cancer. The social worker is on vacation. And I got a phone call from the assessment worker that had originally taken him away and she said, um, you know, your social workers out on vacation. And I dunno how you got away with it the first time, but I’m going to make sure you never see this kid again. And again, you know, skipping over a lot of details that are interesting. We jumped in the car and took off with no idea where we were going. Ultimately we found ourselves overseas, um, hiding from, you know, the authorities. And it wasn’t until a big media got involved and started asking the same questions that the county said, man, we’ve got to do something. We’ve got to bring these guys back. We got to figure out how to make this work. That’s of course is when the gag order was rescinded, as I mentioned earlier. And uh, so long story short, we did prevail, but wow, I mean really took a toll on the family as you might imagine. So today, thankfully he’s, um, his name is Wyatt and he is in good health. Um, that’s a disorder, whereas they’re growing quickly in, as an infant. The body basically can’t keep up with collagen production and so their bones are, are weaker. Um, but we’ve had him tested every year for several years. The dexa scan showed that he’s getting stronger and now he’s pretty much a normal kid, although he may have trouble again when he gets into his sixties and seventies. So that’s, uh, probably the shortest I’ve ever explained that. Um, there’s, there’s so much there. It’s just unbelievable. And I, I think the story is also fantastic because we fled. I mean, we were wanted in all 50 states. We were wanted by the FBI.

Bryan: 13:22 Where did you go?

Wally: 13:22 We went over to Europe, so the, the book will reveal some of this, but we spent time in the UK, um, sometime in Italy, a little bit of time in the Caribbean. That was, uh, a job search that I was looking at trying to find a job that would keep me out of the US and keep being found. So.

Bryan: 13:43 Did, did you have aliases and alter egos and disguises and the whole thing?

Wally: 13:47 We didn’t have that. Um, we decided early on that, hey, let’s just tell the truth about everything to people that we meet, but let’s not tell them that the FBI is looking for us.

Bryan: 13:58 That’s probably a good idea. Especially if you’re looking for a job.

Wally: 14:00 Exactly. But that strategy served us really well because, um, because keeping up a facade of an entire story, you know, I just thought, wow, that that’s something that could crumble pretty quickly, you know, by saying the wrong thing. And basically everything we said was true and all that, the fact that we wanted was just off the table, but we were able to be honest about his condition, about where we were from, about what we did, everything else. And, um, you know, it was nice. We were, we were gone. I mean, it was nice. It wasn’t nice being on the run for the record, but it was nice from the perspective that there’s about nine months there, a 10 months actually, that we were on the run. And during that time, you know, it was a little bit healing because it had been just a nonstop interference from the county, you know, upsetting our home, interfering with our family. So even though we were on the run, we couldn’t talk to anyone. Uh, we didn’t stay in contact with anyone during the course of, um, of us being gone. And the rule was that everybody that we knew at home from our old life, like there was no talking to them. There were no phone calls. There’s nothing

Bryan: 15:13 For some families, I know that that sounds like the ideal.

Wally: 15:19 Yes.

Bryan: 15:21 Now that, that, that must’ve been hard. Um, how did why it do throughout that?

Wally: 15:24 Um, well, you know, he, when we left he was, let’s see, he was about nine months old when we left. So for him, he doesn’t even really have any recollection of that. He learned to walk while we were away. At one point we thought we’re never coming back. Like we honestly believe that. So we went ahead and got pregnant with our second son and then actually we ended up coming home before he was born, which was another exercise in terror all by itself. But

Bryan: 15:55 Wow. So to me, some of this is that what I would call the misery of the creative process because on the one hand you’ve got this incredible story and you are the only one who can tell it, you know, it’s unique to you and people I think would be fascinated by it. People could definitely benefit from, you know, your experience and the things you’ve learned and it all at the same time. While there’s this effort to simply tell a story. There’s this other, my experience in the, the book creation processors is this whole kind of external consideration that is not only useful but necessary in the completion of a project like this if you want it to be in any way commercially successful, right? I mean, you could finish this thing on your own computer, in Word, self publish, you know, go through Amazon, whatever or you know, just go down to Kinko’s and buying a whole bunch in and do that. So let me ask you this, what, what does success look like for you with the completion of this project?

Wally: 16:52 Success, like if I could wave a wand that kind of success?

Bryan: 16:56 Exactly.

Wally: 16:56 This would be that this book was, um, you know, a bestseller that it would be, um, something that maybe they would seek out and, uh, perhaps a movie would be made out of it. Um, back when we first returned, in fact, someone did try to, or someone approached us and offered us some money to make it into a movie and at the time I turned that down because, you know, it was, it was very, very soon after we got back like a month or two. And, but I thought, I remember thinking, wow, well, yeah, this is probably something that’s interesting to people. So success would for me would be that this book would be, I mean, ultimate success that this would be, hey, runaway bestseller. Maybe it would help other families. It would, it would bring a spotlight to this issue that kind of continues and it’s dark and, um, it’s a dark issue because, you know, I, I’ve used this example like if, if um, you and I were hanging out and we’d known each other for a long time and you got a speeding ticket on the way to work or something, we might talk about that, you know, you’d say, aw man, this guy nailed me and I was going to 80 in a 55. And, but you would never, even with your closest friends say, Oh man, you’re not gonna believe what happened. I got accused of child abuse. And so that, that fact, right there is honestly what I think has kept, what is a, um, an epidemic problem from really coming out against social outcry is there’s a lot of embarrassment or, you know, fear about, well, will people think that that I really did it? Or you know, what will people think? And so you’re, you’re in this weird place when that happens that you just don’t really have anywhere to turn to. So you know you, yeah. Like I said, you can’t call up your buddies and go, hey, you help me. Help me talk through this. Yeah. So it’s, it’s an interesting thing. Part of the reason I know there’s so many people out there is we did put together a little, like a little website when we returned to kind of make some of what we knew available to families that were going through the same thing. So we opened this website and in the first week we had 3000 families reach out and say, oh my God, this happened to me. I saw you guys on 20/20 what can I do? And this is a sad reality, is that I was spending like eight or 10 hours a day on the phone with families and after a couple of months to this. I’m like, this sucks, but I, I can’t do it anymore. I just can’t help all these families. And the sad reality is that a lot of them were honestly beyond helping. You know, we had, this sucks to say that, but we had some circumstances in our favor. That’s a lot of these families don’t have, you know, a lot of people can’t just pick up and go across the world and hide out. And frankly, we couldn’t really do it either. We had to do some creative, some creative bookkeeping with, uh, with family and, and figuring out how do we keep being funded while we were away. Um, but it’s, it’s difficult. So there’s a long answer to your question, but I think it’ll, it gives you a good viewpoint from, you know.

Bryan: 20:20 Where in the bookstore would this book be found?

Wally: 20:23 Well, that’s interesting. I’ve never thought about that question. Um, you know, if you’d ask me that right now, I’d say, well, it’s nonfiction, but I don’t know where it would go, you know, as far as who would read it. I’ve had a lot of people tell me in book clubs, they’re like, we would, we would eat this book up in a book club. And so I think of, um, you know, books that have kind of gotten their start in that arena where all of a sudden a lot of interest is generated and that, but I don’t know where this would show up. I think it just, you know, general nonfiction, but I know that I could find it. Yeah. Any narrower than that.

Bryan: 21:00 What’s your working title for the book? What’s the title for the, for the book?

Wally: 21:04 Um, well I have a couple, I’ve, I’ve thought of using his name as the title. I mean, the answer is Baby Wyatt is the working title that I have, but that’s not the title that is gonna make it to publication. So I’ve thought a lot about, well, you know, what would, what is a title that would actually encourage people to read it or pick it up? So the title is actually at the top of each page is Breaking Point right now.

Bryan: 21:36 Hmm. Okay. If you thought now just spontaneously, if there were two books that this, were kind of like, if you mash them together, what would they be?

Wally: 21:47 Oh, let me think about that. Well, one of them would have to be some type of adventure, you know, um, because there is action and there’s a little bit of, you know, drama.

Bryan: 22:01 Yeah. I, I’m almost thinking like, I think it’s Frank Abagnale’s Catch Me If You Can. Right. Catch Me If You Can meets Raising Arizona or something.

Wally: 22:13 That was good. I like that.

Bryan: 22:16 So thinking about it that way. And then, um, let me just, uh, just so, just a couple more questions that are hopefully both useful for anybody listening and also useful for you. Maybe to get more clarity or definition for yourself. Like, why isn’t this book done yet?

Wally: 22:31 Okay. Why is not finished written yet? Um, that question, the answer to that question is that. Well, I, I guess I can’t give you a great answer. The answer I would give normally. What would you tell Keith? Ouch. Um, I would tell Keith that it’s not a, it hasn’t been a priority. Okay. Listening audience, they won’t understand that answer. Maybe a lot of them. Um, but the fact is that if we’re not doing something as humans than the, the sad cold fact is that there’s just not a priority because if it was, we’d actually do it. Yeah. That’s a real answer. The real question there I think is why hasn’t this book been a priority for you to finish? I’ve been working on it for oh wow, Like seven or eight years and I do have several hundred pages written. And the fact is if I sat down today and I did nothing but work on it, probably inside of you know, 60 days the book would be complete. So I think the reason why, I hate to say it hasn’t been a priority cause I, I, I wouldn’t say that out loud before, but uh, I think the reason why it hasn’t been is because there is some doubt in my mind. I had someone tell me recently who actually is a published author and he used a ghostwriter and he said, look man, you don’t need to write this book. It’s not going to be successful. Like he wasn’t necessarily saying it about me. He was kind of saying in general, and I remember he made a comment and the comment was, I said, well, I think I’m a pretty good writer, which, which I actually do think that. So I said, well, I think I’m a pretty good writer. He’s like, yeah, you’re not, but he doesn’t know.

Bryan: 24:16 Dude, this guy doesn’t sound like a kind of friend I want to hang out with.

Wally: 24:19 Yeah. Well he wasn’t meaning it in a negative way, he was basically saying everybody thinks they’re a good writer. And the way I interpreted at least was that odds are that you aren’t as good as you think you are. I don’t think he was trying to squash me per say. But there’s some of that in there. There’s a doubt like, Hey, can I really do this.

Bryan: 24:40 Well I, that’s, that’s totally normal. Right? And somebody once pointed out to me that every human being shares the same two basic fears of I’m not enough and I’ll never be loved. Right? But at the same time, we all think we’re an above average driver or an above average lover, or that we do more of the work in our relationships. So it’s kinda funny how we have these distorted self images. And a long time ago I came to the conclusion that what matters less than whether or not what I believe is true is whether or not what I believe empowers me. That’s kind of a complicated thought. That’s a wordy way of saying it, but I guess what that leads me to a question for you as one who is in the middle of a seven or eight year project and not yet where you want it to be, haven’t achieved success as you’ve defined it in this conversation is who do you have to be or who will you commit to be in order to, you know, complete this and the way that you want to?

Wally: 25:36 I think the answer to that is I would have to believe that this project is worthwhile for people to read. Yeah. Kind of giving me that question on the fly like that makes me, makes me consider it a little bit differently, but I think, I think there probably is a fear of that. I think there’s a fear like, okay, well what if I publish it and no one wants to read it? Which is a ridiculous fear as you just pointed out. And consistent with my reasons for writing in the first place. Honestly, if I finished the book and then publish it and one copy goes to Wyatt and he gets to read all this background about what happened and, and everything that technically satisfies half of the reason that I wanted to write the book in the first place.

Bryan: 26:25 Amazing. Well, and I think it was, I think it was Vonnegut, they gave the advice right, for just one person and writing for Wyatt allows you to do that. Right? So that’s what he was saying. And by the way, I don’t think that fear is ridiculous at all. I think it’s totally, I think it’s totally reasonable. You know that, I mean, every human being has self doubt. Um, I think as far as I know, and by the way, the thing about it being worthwhile, it’s like 20 minutes ago, I didn’t know much at all about this project. And here’s the thing, we’ve all seen this, right? There’s these kind of stories that come out of nowhere and they’re not necessarily a mainstream topic, but they become mainstream. And whether it’s like Alex Honnold with Free Solo climbing in Yosemite and it’s just like totally amazing. Or I mean, what else the story is like, uh, what’s that black was that Black Fish?

Wally: 27:16 Oh, it’s the three billboard story.

Bryan: 27:18 Yeah, the three billboards outside, whatever. So it’s like we never, we never know, um, you know where something will go. But I think pretty much every spiritual tradition encourages to forget the fruits of your labor. I mean, I don’t know if that’s a useful thought, but although it can be empowering to think of what is success look like and how’s the world going to be different, how’s my life going to be different when we do this? And if that works for you to fuel you, by all means, you know, use that. But if any of that ever creeps in with the shadow, like in, in, in parts of doubt, into, oh, it’s not, I mean, worth it. Nobody. Then all of a sudden that is not, that’s, that’s actually working against you. Right. And where maybe as a, I won’t even say labor of love, but whatever, a commitment of pure self expression or to think about what Neale Donald Walsch said, the guy that wrote Conversations With God, I thought it was an interesting thing where, you know, his opinion he wrote in that book, the only reason to do anything is as an expression to the universe of who you are. And that’s a pretty, it’s kind of like a high, you know, a high minded concept. But I wonder how might your approach to this project be different if you took it on as, look, I’m writing this for Wyatt or I’m writing this because it’s an expression of who I am or my deepest truth. How do you think it might be different if you, if you were able to come at it from that perspective every time you sat down to work on it?

Wally: 28:42 Well I think it would be radically different. Um, because, as we’re sitting here, I’m also thinking there’s a, you know, there’s also a fear, um, which I think is probably the greater fear is, well, what if I do all this work and then I can’t figure out how to get it into a book, you know, like how to get it published, right?

Bryan: 28:59 Dude, you just put two covers on it and it’s a book.

Wally: 29:05 This is helpful because, you know, saying these things out loud kind of exposes the ridiculousness of those fears. Right?

Bryan: 29:12 Well, and if it’s helpful, there’s always someone dumber than youth. It’s done it with more success. Right? I mean, so we know it’s not about intelligence, it’s not about desire as far as I can tell. It’s about willingness. Like, will you do it?

Wally: 29:24 Yeah, I think you’re right. And so I think the answer to that question is it would have a dramatic effect. You know, I’d, I’d actually scheduled time on the calendar to work on it. And, and then when that time came, I’d work on it. And then low and behold, we’d fast forward a little bit. And it would be done. So yeah, that feedback, that’s helpful.

Bryan: 29:43 Yeah. Then as I’m fond of saying, I could be wrong, my opinion is worth no more than yours, but uh, maybe it’s encouraged you to think of something newly or you know, something, something new or newly. Okay. So I have two last questions. One is about how will you create for yourself a way of being accountable?

Wally: 30:07 Well, one way to do that, there’s a couple ways to do that. The easiest one, I think the most effective one for me is just to, um, you know, reach out to someone that I’m close to and ask them to hold me accountable. Um, that, that technique is pretty powerful for me. So I, I use that every week in other areas including at the company. So setting up some accountability where, you know, I need to report it in and say, hey, this is what I did this week. And picking a partner that will hold me to that. I mean, that’s obviously a big part of it.

Bryan: 30:42 Hmm. That sounds pretty reasonable. And, and also just to have a mental kind of a flag in the ground. When would you like to have this? Let’s pick a milestone, something specific, something concrete and there’s a lot of them, right? It could be when you’ve completed a book proposal, when you’ve completed the manuscript, when you found, you know, when you’ve got a publishing deal, when the book is in a bookstore, like there’s a whole bunch and it could be something else of course. But what’s a milestone that you would pick as a, you know, and there is no finish line is kind of the illusion, like we never really get there. You might even make the bestseller list, but then it’s, well I haven’t sold as many copies or Oprah hasn’t called yet or whatever. Right? But what’s, what’s a milestone that you would pick right now? And of course you can pick a new one anytime, but what’s, what’s a milestone you would pick that would represent the success or at least trajectory along the path of success you want to achieve?

Wally: 31:34 That milestone for me would be walking into a bookstore and seeing that book on the shelf.

Bryan: 31:42 Okay. That’s great. That’s beautiful. And by when?

Wally: 31:47 By when I think realistically, you know, holding myself accountable starting even this week to just putting in the time on a consistent basis. I think realistically that could be done by, well, let’s see. Completing the book, getting it on the bookshelf. Oh, I don’t know how long that process takes. Let’s just say September one.

Bryan: 32:13 Okay, so September one of 2019. Yeah, this year. Okay. And then, okay, so here’s the two last questions, um, that I have. One is if anybody listening to this wanted to be a part of your project in some way, they wanted to buy a copy. Maybe they wanted to be an editor, they wanted to be an accountability buddy, you know, something like that. If they wanted to connect with you, um, how would you like them to do that?

Wally: 32:39 While I think the easiest way to connect is a just, uh, send me a note, like an email. And uh, you know, and then we can explore it from there.

Bryan: 32:48 Is there an email address you’d feel comfortable just putting it on the internet like this or.

Wally: 32:51 Yeah, sure. Absolutely. Um, my email address, my personal email address is W G H I N E S 3 @ gmail.com.

Bryan: 33:05 Awesome. Okay. And then the final thing, I know there’s one more question in here, but I didn’t know what it is yet, so I’ll, and I’ll end with this and if it pops up I’ll ask it, but what was most useful for you here today?

Wally: 33:17 The most useful thing without question is just having you shine the light on some of the questions in a way that I was really forced, not against my will, but forced to examine what, what some of these reasons were. And then I was able, once I examine them, to acknowledge them and say, you know what, that’s, that’s kind of a ridiculous, um, belief that I’ve, I’ve obviously been harboring in the back of my head. So bringing, bringing some of those delights, that was, that was really the most valuable piece.

Bryan: 33:50 Right on. Oh, and by the way, your friend, you’re, you’re a published author friend that said you probably no good at writing, not as good as you think. Maybe next time you have a conversation with him, you can point out that when you look at the cover of all those books, it doesn’t say best writing writer, it says bestselling author.

Wally: 34:08 Right.

Bryan: 34:08 Right? There’s no correlation between the quality of what’s on the page and how many freaking copies it sells. So yeah, in fact, research shows that the majority of book purchasers only read about 18 pages of a book before they put it down. So you know, you could be the greatest literary champion of our century and most people will never even know it. But on the other hand, you can sell a whole bunch of copies and not have, not have a lot of writing skills per se. So for what it’s worth.

Wally: 34:42 Really focused on the first 18 pages is what I heard.

Bryan: 34:45 Make the first, hey, Jack Canfield did that with Chicken Soup for the Soul. He, he had a group of Beta readers read every story, rate them on a scale of zero to 10 in terms of what really moved them, what was, what had emotional impact. Then he, he front loaded and end loaded because of the peak end theory, right, of people remember. And so what would happen is people would find these books, start reading it, then they would rave to their friends about it, start with their book club, like you were saying. And all of a sudden they were just, I mean, that combined with a relentless sales effort, he and Mark Victor Hansen are brilliant marketers. But at any rate, you’re right. There’s, there’s something to be said for making sure that you’re really grabbing that reader in the first from the first sentence. So that’s great. Okay. Well, Wally I loved, I’m glad that we, that we made this happen. So thank you for making time for it.

Wally: 35:37 Absolutely. Thanks for having me.