Podcast Episode 175

with our guest Raymond Moody

Life After Life: The Original Investigation Revealing Near Death Experiences

Brilliant Miller: [00:00:19] Hi. I’m Brilliant, your host for this show. I know that I’m incredibly blessed. As the son of self-made billionaires, I’ve seen the high price some people pay for success, and I’ve learned that money really can’t buy happiness. But I’ve also had the good fortune to learn directly from many of the world’s leading teachers. If you are ready to be, do, have, and give more, this podcast is for you. How often do you think about what happens after we die? Have you ever known anyone who has died and come back? Maybe you have. It’s actually not all that uncommon. My guest today has made a career of studying this phenomenon. His name is Raymond Moody. He’s got a Ph.D. He’s also a medical doctor. He’s a world-renowned scholar, lecturer, and researcher. And he’s widely recognized as the leading authority on near-death experiences as he coined the term near-death experiences. He’s the bestselling author, the bestselling author of many books, including Life After Life, Glimpses of Eternity, The Light Beyond Coming Back, and More. His work profoundly illuminates our understanding of death, dying, and grief, and offers compelling answers to the question Is there an afterlife? I read two of Dr. Moody’s books. I read Paranormal My Life in Pursuit of the Afterlife and what I believe is his latest book called God Is Bigger Than the Bible. I really appreciate Dr. Moody’s wide-ranging curiosity, and I also appreciate the honesty and the intellectual rigor with which he pursues this question of an afterlife. In this conversation, we explore so much. We talk about philosophy, we talk about nonsense. We talk about commonly reported experiences of those who have died and returned to life, or at least those who reported having an experience along those lines. Dr. Moody is a skeptic, as he says. He draws no particular conclusion, although he does have his own experiences, including his own near-death experience, which we also talk about. This conversation is one of those where I pursue my curiosity and full intensity. So if you are a seeker, if you’re curious, if you want to more fully understand the universe or life, you might enjoy this with that. This to our conversation with my friend and kindred spirit, I think fellow seeker, lover of knowledge, philosopher, doctor Moody, or as he says, Raymond. You can also find him online at life afterlife dot com or of course with a Google search or find his books on Amazon.com or at any fine bookseller near you. Okay. With that, enjoy this conversation with my friend Dr. Raymond Moody. Well Raymond, welcome to the School for Good Living. [00:03:23][183.6]
Raymond Moody: [00:03:26] Just a pleasure to be here with you. Brilliant. We had a little for conversation here, and you’re just such a really nice person to be with. 44. I’m 77. I go right back there, know that, you know, it does get better. But with everything. [00:03:44][18.4]
Brilliant Miller: [00:03:45] That’s been my experience so far. You know, when I was younger, I didn’t think that I would live to be 40. I always had this idea that my life would end because I would end it, and I didn’t anticipate anything beyond that. And then my 40th birthday, it turns out I hadn’t planned this particularly, but I was in San Diego, I was with friends, I was on the beach in the morning. I was in a seminar that afternoon and it was wonderful. And my experience is that the longer life goes, the better gets. [00:04:11][25.8]
Raymond Moody: [00:04:12] Yeah, it’s so true. Yeah, there’s something to that. It’s going to be offensive to many, but. There’s something to that thing in the Bible. About three score and ten, but no more. Right. And I always kind of scoffed. That’s like the Bible. It’s like there’s some kind of limit. And then I got into geriatric psychiatry before I went into the forensic part, and I began to see that there’s something to that. If you don’t think it in terms of of years, but in terms of development, it’s like developmentally you look through life and they see these developmental stages, you know, the infancy and the toddlerhood, the latency age, the puberty, all the young adulthood, the mid-life crisis which are was in. And then in the fifties, people just like clockwork, they get into garden. And there is all this is automatic and 60. You’re at the height of your impressions on Saturday and all. But you know, this decade there’s not any specific developmental thing we associate with it, you know, which is kind of frightening to me. I mean, it’s like because I mean, because it raises all kinds of issues that but it’s not last something to think about that in terms of the life development phase is the first seven just real well attested that it gets kind of vague and disorganized but you know what is an 80 year old? What is the world? You know, and I don’t. [00:06:05][112.8]
Brilliant Miller: [00:06:06] Well, we get to figure it out together. We get to be the authors and the creators. Right. [00:06:11][4.9]
Raymond Moody: [00:06:12] Sure. [00:06:12][0.0]
Brilliant Miller: [00:06:13] What a privilege. Well, will you tell me, please, my, what is life about? And I want to follow that question because I know your life study has been around death. And so I want to follow it up as well as what is death about? [00:06:28][14.8]
Raymond Moody: [00:06:30] Mean. I grew up with old people, my ass like that. It was a complicated story that identified what was my grandparents, my grandparents, that my dad was in the war and me, it was then medical school. And so I you know, death was just sort of part of the picture because old people were always dying. And my grandmother, Ludy, was more talked about funerals all the time. So, you know, that was the background to me. I was into astronomy and mind expansion and Dr. Seuss and Lewis Carroll that filled my childhood. I remember sitting on the porch reading Dr. Seuss in a rocking chair, and I was a kid. And because I realized that nonsense literature portrays the world in a very real way, it’s much better than literal language. So then I went to the University of Virginia intent on becoming an astronomer, and then with the first one of the 4×1, I wanted to take class in philosophy, too, so. All right, Raymond. Ray Plato’s Republic, first assignment and wow. I mean, literally, I could show you the point on the page where I said, well, I’m going to major in philosophy. And so Plato and to this day is big. Okay. So then at the end of the Republic, it’s just like that great scene in Herodotus where all those Persians are squeezing into that narrow little. It’s like a similar drama. Plato shapes this whole magnificent work, which is about life after death in relationship to the question of justice. And it’s all just squeezing right to this end. Where Plato announces and this is no tail to out the notes, which has to do with the back breath said the Greeks had different ways of imagining how you could go to the underworld, and that’s what the republic is about. And the second one is that they would go to these places down on the ground called Oracles of the Dead, and they would call up the spirits and they could see the spirits. And it really works by the language. It’s an astonishing mechanism, but it does it. You can set it up in reality and it works. And then Plato compares this to like the Shadow shows that sort of just seeing big shadows dancing on the wall from a fire. It’s like these people are in a prison, really. So then he says and so that that image comes from the Odyssey book 11, which is The Underworld. And the. And they. And I know this because I looked it up the first time I read The Odyssey. First time. I mean, I read The Republic. Was that. Socrates and commenting on this arrangement of Shadows says, Well to me, and said, I would side with Homer and I would rather be a landless man and a slave of another that to opine with them and live this shadow life. And so but that in the Odyssey I looked it up in the Odyssey and that is is in the book 11. It’s spoken by Achilles. It says that. So that shows that the underworld saying Invade the Oracle of the Dead saying and the Odyssey is what Plato was talking about. Say so he’s not talking about. But then and so and The Odyssey, this story is one of several that were told by Odysseus taking out the notes and the stories in there are so fantastic that it was a common Greek expression that’s said tale to those told, meaning it’s made up. But then here at the very end, Plato says, and this is no tale to alpha notes told like the oracle of the dead, but the tale of a warrior. And, you know, he really is deaf, deferential. This is the real who was believed dead in battle. Leftist by went through all these things and then came up at his funeral and told the story which is the republic ends. And so I was just really reeling with all this information. At the same time, I was reading products and song histories, which is about this kind of stuff, too. And I mean, all of this is just that sounds incredible today. But this is one, of course, my first year this that just totally shaped my whole intellectual development from then on. And so that’s where I found them about these near-death experiences. And I knew from my professor, I asked him, you said these were were circulated among these Greek philosophers. They knew these stories, but they it’s just like today, Democritus that Adam wrote about and he said, well, there’s no such thing as a moment of death. And he said, this is just the the now invisible biological processes of the body that still are going on after the person seems dead. And so that same day, you know, some people oh, yeah, this is where other people say, oh, this is just the oxygen deprivation to the brain. That’s the the format of the debate is not changed since 2300 years ago. And so then and this concurrent force I was taking called the Liberal Arts Seminar, we read the Apology and the Criteo and the Fade Out. And I remember this was probably on October of 1962. I remember it just like it was yesterday. Or that reading the SATA, which is the book that is just totally shaped my whole existence. And it is to this day it is theme. It is among the several best works ever done on the. Rational approach to the question of life after death. Parapsychology, by the way, is not a rational approach. Parapsychology is a form of irrational thinking. It is actually closely related in its psychology to hypochondriasis. But that’s a long story. [00:14:10][460.0]
Brilliant Miller: [00:14:11] What is hypochondriasis? I’m not familiar with this term of hypochondriasis. [00:14:15][4.0]
Raymond Moody: [00:14:16] It’s like hypochondriacs. [00:14:17][0.4]
Brilliant Miller: [00:14:18] Okay, I. [00:14:18][0.5]
Raymond Moody: [00:14:19] Know it sounds bizarre, but I can show you very clearly why this belief structure is very pseudo beliefs structures there. So, you know, my point is that that is that’s where the genuinely rational inquiry into the question of life after death begins. And Plato points out. 12 points by my count. No doubt those where he says, there’s this necessity that are brought to if you’re going to investigate this question of life after death. And he has 12 of them I could enumerate here. But I mean, it’s the point is that this was a thorough analysis. And one of the things that was I remember is that it hit me just, wow, in this dialog, the state of play to say and maybe I should give them a little more of the context when I was a kid, you know, I mean, naturally, my sister had her record player boom, boom, you know, and I was trying to read my books. I remember I used to sit down my rocking chair base with my ears kind of thing in a thing I had to knock out saying what’s great and yeah, and, and so, so and I was 18 at this time when I’m talking about the theta and this is just a year or two before right then. So and then Plato’s talk about hey, you know, it’s like we people, we people who study philosophy, you know, it’s like we’re half dead and we’re trying to block all that sale and there’s always these distractions saying and so I was thinking, Yeah, yep, yeah. And then Plato said, that philosophy is a rehearsal for dying. It hit me like, say how I can still feel. I’m, I, I’ve felt it all my life and he’s absolutely right. Philosophy is a rehearsal for dying. What then? [00:16:20][120.8]
Brilliant Miller: [00:16:22] What does he mean by that? [00:16:22][0.6]
Raymond Moody: [00:16:23] Well, he means several things. And one is that this question of life after death is the one that everything else comes turns on. Right? Then, if there is low life, then this whole existence we’re in now takes on a wholly different context and meaning. See, I mean, it’s just like the radical nature of this. Is there, isn’t there that. Yeah, it’s it. Everything else turns out that, that concerns it. So that was what hit me about it. And then about three years later, I heard from one of my philosophy professors that a wonderful man right there in Charlottesville, Dr. George Richey, had had one of these experiences. And so one gang took the opportunity. George was always so generous to students and lecturers and and I just listen to that. Wow. They just oh, they’ve met. So that was kind of a big yeah. That was where I guess God came into my life conscious more or less, although even then it was not like I have never been religious and hopefully I can, you know, manage to squeak out of that the rest of my life. But you know, it was a wake up to yeah. To that spirit, which I then heard from many other people, you know, all through their near-death experiences, talking about their personal. Experiences with God when they were on the verge of death. And then I had a personal experience of that time of despair in 1991. So, no, you know, it’s again, as the great mystics and this psychologists like William James, of all places, emphasize, there are no words as part of the characteristic of it that it is escapes words. But nonetheless, it then becomes a sort of. I guess a point of reference for everything else. Although you easily forget that they emerged on the fly. Yeah. You know, and. And. Yeah. You know, it’s like the older you get, the more you can keep those moments of realization of it going in a line. Paradoxically, you can be vexed by that and terrified by it, anxious about it. At the very same time, you are all that this other channel watching this is realizing fully that it’s just kind of an illusion. I mean, you know, not to degrade it because it’s a great illusion. It’s like this is the greatest movie in which these things are. And that sounds so bizarre until you get my age, because it’s a very common thing as people age. It’s they’re eloquent and reflective, at least. I mean, those are the patients. And in a certain situation, that’s where I was the geriatric psychiatrist. When the people in town, the two celebrity known or. Prominent to be seen on the mount. It looks like it had to be up to the special place, which was a good thing, which was embarrassing for them, you know, and, and, and this was the geriatric wing and so on. I just talked for a year to these eloquent people and they’re all, you know, as Raymond. The older I get, it’s more of this uncanny impression developed. Now, look back at my life that it’s been that kind of story or movie or script or play or drama or games or different words. But the element that they emphasize is the narrative. Yeah, yeah. [00:20:42][259.0]
Brilliant Miller: [00:20:43] Yeah. That’s that’s something I definitely want to ask you about. And then thank you for providing that background. I want to go back and touch on a few things that you that you said. One is I’m curious what your view is on why. Why did philosophy have such a hold on you when you had gone to school thinking that you would study astronomy and the physical universe? But when you encountered this work and and Plato and Socrates, why why was it something that just grabbed a hold of you and you or you delve into with both feet. [00:21:22][39.0]
Raymond Moody: [00:21:24] And this developmental and principles and. And I’ll tell you that this does the vanity part is kind of embarrassing, that it’s the reality. The the developmental part, because I remember when I was about five or six years old and I was a reader early on. I think this was before I went to school, I think. But if not, it was I was no older than seven and I was sitting on the floor. Reading a book. I don’t remember what I and my dad book or a magazine. I can’t. But my dad was sitting in the chair beside me reading his medical text book. That part I do remember. I remember it being I think it was an anatomy textbook. And. And so when I came across this word philosophy and I said to Dad, what is philosophy? And he went immediately into this. It is like this, a wonderful thing that is done by these very wise men. It was all just like. And, you know, just a very, very. You know, praising is like judgment of the field of philosophy and how wonderful it works. And that was one element of it in that even in high school, I’ve been interested in philosophy and read some philosophy things too. Although the astronomy was not that way and really paradoxically to the philosophical sweep of of astronomy was what brought me to it in first place. Right. I mean, seven years old, built my own telescope. I got a laugh now, but it worked. And and and looking out into that expanse and having the thought that many people all and probably everybody listening to this is going to say, yeah, me too. You have this thought when you’re about that age, how big is this? And your mind zooms out to the wall. But then you say, Hey, it’s not it’s got to be something on the other side of a wall, doesn’t there? But then the other thing is, it goes on forever. And that’s that’s mind boggling. And I remember that was that experience was really part of the. It was concurrent with my waking up to the amazement of consciousness in the first place and the realization that you’re never going to go have any much knowledge at all, but that it’s fun to I mean, it’s the greatest pleasure, you know, to to seek knowledge. I mean, along making the created along with that. Yeah. [00:24:30][186.4]
Brilliant Miller: [00:24:31] And I certainly think so. Right. And it’s and we’re reminded of that even in the etymology of the word philosophy. [00:24:37][5.7]
Raymond Moody: [00:24:38] Right. Yeah. A lover. [00:24:39][1.7]
Brilliant Miller: [00:24:40] Of was. [00:24:40][0.1]
Raymond Moody: [00:24:41] Yeah. And so concurrently with that too, I realized, I mean, say it wasn’t a bad thing to me as it was nonsense because I went right to Dr. Seuss and Lewis Carroll and. Oh, yeah, yeah. And comic books. Uncle Scrooge comic books and Donald book books by a great artist whose name is Carl Barks and Lucas and Speilberg have said that recent national treasure and you know, all these amazing books just changed so many people my age. You might take a look and it’s it’s really mine that Carl Barks. [00:25:20][39.0]
Brilliant Miller: [00:25:20] That’s that’s fun. [00:25:21][0.7]
Raymond Moody: [00:25:22] Yeah. All of his works are still at print. You can get every one of those comics that I grew up with. And two of the scenes and the Indiana Jones movie set drawn directly from the Uncle Scrooge comic books, that line cart scene and the statue scene where they take the statue and it starts to build. Or now those are taken from amazing comic books by Carl Barks and he talks about nonsense. I was reading him, I realized that there’s different types of nonsense when I was about 12, and that was a kind of formative moment in my life. I may not realize there’s different types of nonsense. So then, you know, with all this history and background, I went to UVA and there I am reading The Republic and several pages in. Socrates is quizzing Catholics. This old man, Socrates is then about 22. Catullus is probably 67 because I have for many. Many cattle losses have come to me as a psychiatrist, and quite so and so. Socrates asked this careful loves. Well. What concerns you at this age? Careful of this, because I know I may get there someday myself. And so capralos as well. Socrates, I’ve spent my life in my business and I’ve done very well. I took the money I inherited from my father and that’s it. Did well, was it. Now have more of that to pass along to mine. Just really. And that’s worked out very well. And now it’s like now I’ve reached this point where I start thinking about those stories, but after what I heard when I was a kid. Now I’m just developed this sense of urgency and want to know more about this. So then the conversation goes on. And that was the first moment I realized, see, I, I never realized until reading that very passage that anybody took the question of an afterlife as a serious thing other than a comic from like a Jack Benny Booth. I went to with my Aunt Edna May, where it’s about the afterlife. And, you know, to me it was just a funny movie. I didn’t know the people. And I remember some cartoons of the clouds and but here was my hero already saying, oh, you know, this is a very important question. C was where to begin on sinking on me. And then and then this is the moment where I decided I’m going to be. It was philosopher and it was that. So somehow the question of justice gets raised right. And so Socrates says, Well, you know. Kefalas What do you think it’s like? What is justice and the Kefalas that’s well, you know, I think Socrates justice is just returning to others. What was given to you and you know, Socrates and this amazing man. That’s really terrific. Wow. I never thought of that. We, you know, how did you come up with that? Caseloads desperately. And, you know, and then excellence. And I’m wondering you’re like, what if a friend of mine who’s in good spirits and good state of mind, he comes to me and he said, Would you take care of this nice combat for me? I’m going out of town for a while. So then, you know, while a friend come back, his hair is discovered sweating red on the face. He’s talking about this man. It’s like my watch. Is that just too, too hot to give me this weapon? And I remember that because that was the point I said. I want to be able to tease this myself and not tear it up. I mean, I did it because I wanted to do it to anybody else. Because I wanted to do it to myself. [00:30:09][286.8]
Brilliant Miller: [00:30:11] I thought dissect rational argument. [00:30:13][2.8]
Raymond Moody: [00:30:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not thinking combat, but this. Like, what a great technique to bear down with that objection as hard as you can. Yeah. Yeah. And then. And that’s now, in a way, that’s how it was already. But so it was temperamentally. But to see it laid out like that. So clear. So big. Yeah. So. [00:30:39][24.5]
Brilliant Miller: [00:30:42] Well, thank you for that. So from there, earning a PhD in philosophy and another Ph.D. and then an M.D.. [00:30:50][8.2]
Raymond Moody: [00:30:52] Actually that thing somehow I saw that thing about a page in psychology and that I don’t know how that got misprinted or something, but actually what it should have been is this like I was a professor of psychology, okay? I have a I had a PhD in philosophy and I have been and a and an M.D. and a psychiatry residency. And I have also served as a professor of psychology. [00:31:18][26.2]
Brilliant Miller: [00:31:19] Okay. Got it. So from from there, this journey of learning and growth looking, which I think is so remarkable and probably, as you said, there’s developmental stages and there and so it looks like a path that we’re all on, perhaps that we often begin by looking outside, but inevitably, it seems we come to look inside. [00:31:40][20.8]
Raymond Moody: [00:31:41] Yeah, right. [00:31:41][0.7]
Brilliant Miller: [00:31:42] And this work that you’ve done in as a particularly as a as a doctor, I realize these are not separate necessarily. You know, these these roles you play or the hats you wear, so to speak. But in this work of talking with people who have had death experiences, near-death experiences, crossed over done to the afterlife, perhaps, which by the way, I do want to interject this. Just about a month ago, I was reading something online and I heard the joke, why did the chicken cross the road? Right. I had never, ever got in my 40 plus years of living the double meaning of to get to the other side. [00:32:22][39.8]
Raymond Moody: [00:32:23] Oh, yeah. [00:32:23][0.5]
Brilliant Miller: [00:32:25] That was like. [00:32:26][0.4]
Raymond Moody: [00:32:27] I had never thought that either. Brilliant. That’s brilliant. Brilliant. I mean, holy mackerel. I never thought of it either. [00:32:34][7.4]
Brilliant Miller: [00:32:35] Yeah. Isn’t that interesting? [00:32:36][0.6]
Raymond Moody: [00:32:36] Right. Then it goes from just a triviality to a spiritual state. Oh, my God. [00:32:43][6.9]
Brilliant Miller: [00:32:45] Isn’t that interesting? [00:32:46][0.5]
Raymond Moody: [00:32:47] Okay. [00:32:47][0.0]
Brilliant Miller: [00:32:48] So. So I have a few questions. And by the way, one of these comes from my mother, because I talked to her yesterday about the fact that you and I would be talking today, and she had a question that she wanted me to ask you. So I’ll get to that. But I do want to ask, you talked about God just a few minutes ago, and as I understood that was in relation to people who have I’m not sure what you call it, crossed over, passed on. Some have gone to the afterlife, but I do. So we can go in a lot of different directions. But I but I’d love to ask you about what are some of the commonalities, because not everyone has the same experience, but there are similarities, right. And so and then as you mentioned, that you had your own experience, which is one thing to research, but it’s another to experience firsthand. So I’d love maybe if you could start in the macro. Well, let’s start with the personal. Will you tell us? Tell me about your your experience. I understand you’ve had you’ve had is a thyroid issue. [00:33:46][58.2]
Raymond Moody: [00:33:46] Yeah. Just like a I had retrospectively when I was diagnosed with Sydney in May of 1984 and they had could find no measurable thyroid hormones and my body. And my TSA gets high when you’re center slow was by far the highest that any of my doctors had ever seen. And they had traced this back retrospectively in my medical records to 1966. And but it wasn’t call it that. It’s retrospectively, the symptom that was missed was a single white highlight. Wow. Which I learned in my medical training is that that is a sign of Hashimoto’s thyroiditis. And I had it and I noticed it and I asked in vain. So I just thought dismissed it idiosyncratic. And then I had to have it and see. Nobody could believe that I was having a thyroid problem because my output was very high. I mean, I was. So it didn’t make sense that I could be having all these degrees and was doing all these things and having a thyroid problem. So and so, yeah. And it got so bad. I went into the great darkness. I mean, I was just a lot of period, I don’t remember of that, which is this that part of the thyroid condition that when you get into that mix of them to state it’s it’s a kind of organic like dementia I guess. And so coming out of it was just like the most amazing thing I began to see colors, which are the vibrancy of colors. I mean, it just it’s indescribable, just like this reemergence. And during that time, I attempted to kill myself, I guess. I mean, you know, it’s just to. I remember the despair, but I don’t remember the circumstances very much so in any way. So and so then during that time, not like the full blown near-death experiences, the out-of-body and all like that. No, mine was different. I it’s like I like to say that I was more like I saw the city limits. Mm hmm. But they. What I very definitely experienced was the layering of reality, which is these things that people say that it’s like George Richey said that he was in the presence of Christ. He said he was sort of three different realms of the lot, life after veil and one around where these people were just stumbling around, trying to just like focused on who were dead but didn’t know it. But, you know, there’s humor to it. So it’s because, you know, it’s like wake up, you know? And it’s like when your wife is waking up in the morning, she’s kind of you’ve got to say, hey, wake up. [00:37:20][213.6]
Brilliant Miller: [00:37:21] That’s a little bit like Earth. [00:37:22][1.2]
Raymond Moody: [00:37:24] Yes, that’s right. And then he said, there’s this. We said, George said what? You said this was sixties and time. And Christ, he said, with a wave, another wave of his arm of light. He said the whole scene changed and we saw into a whole different dimension of reality, which was, he said. That’s what he said. If you try to put Caltech and M.I.T. and Harvard and Yale and Princeton at the University of California at UCLA, it’s just all squeezed into one. He said, You can’t even begin to imagine that. He said that it was people whose advocates were just saying they’re into seeking knowledge. And he said he sort of saw into one aspect of that place that he said you could call it. It’s like you’d have to say it was like a library. And he said and one section of this library consisted of the holy books of the universe. Now I would say that that that but when you think of the religions that might. You know, acknowledge that kind of. DOELEMAN It’s very interesting, right? And so then another wave crisis wiped so many seats around that he didn’t see go into it. He said you couldn’t get out of it. What you said it was like Cities of light and that all the people there, you know, these and light and it’s like a civilization structure that of light. And, you know, all of these are things I’ve heard from numerous people, but all of these, the ones like this are always the ones where the cardiac arrest wound so long that you just you know, it’s impossible to believe. But, you know, they happen. And and Georges was one of those. He was the doctor. Francis said it was, you know, brought him back to life by injecting adrenaline into his heart. So I’ve never seen such an unusual thing in my 40 years of practice in Venice in December, George Richie was dead, we said for 9 minutes at least. And but, you know, so these are the ones where these extraordinary things happen in these these higher realms now that this is their wife, Marguerite, a southern belle from Richmond. They were both from Richmond. And the word great was just so concrete and was just so kindly and so great and just so much fun to be with. And, you know, it’s like she had no insurance before this transformation and she’s, you know, she’s still astonished by it after all, all of those years. And so she went every time this was back. Now we’re talking about I became with just really, really good friends. And back in the seventies when I moved back to Charlottesville, we were together a lot. And Margaret used to say, I wish George would say that with another wave of his arm liked, you know, she was just squishy. I wish he would say that. It was so embarrassed. So now this is Mid-Set. Now, flash forward to, oh, just a few years ago, one of the elections, I think it was the one of the Obama election, the first or the second, and where they had this big cohort there. And they they they, you know, they the House announced it would just go see this whole shift. And and now you can do it on your own computers, you know, and, you know, it’s it’s just the funniest thing how life happens and. Yeah. [00:41:54][270.4]
Brilliant Miller: [00:41:55] No doubt. [00:41:55][0.2]
Raymond Moody: [00:41:56] And you were asking about some common features. [00:41:58][2.0]
Brilliant Miller: [00:41:59] Yeah, that’s high. So first of all, they’re just acknowledging that in your career you’ve what when you began, as I understand and you can correct this or add to it as appropriate that you didn’t know anyone had these afterlife or near-death experiences, then you learned it was common to the Greeks and other cultures. And then, although it’s not something that we talk about publicly often in our society or we don’t know how to discuss one by one teaching classes and working with patients, you found this is actually a very common experience. [00:42:32][33.3]
Raymond Moody: [00:42:33] Yeah. Yeah. And anybody who investigate it can find that it’s this was known throughout history, it’s in Plato. And so you can find it all throughout. But see, back in those days, it was rather uncommon to well, to almost die and recover, you know. But in the sixties and seventies, the development of cardiopulmonary resuscitation people were being brought back from that state all the time. So that’s when I really started investigating it in 1969 that I knew two cases before. But then when I started in Philosophy Professor, I just started hearing this from my students in connection with reading the Theta. This is what we’ve become, just like my grandma at this experience, or I and then my colleagues, you know, the professors and and yeah, this happened to me. So then I went to medical school in 72. That’s how it developed. It was what was the commonality of what was so astonishing? Because back in those days the civic clubs were all male provinces and they were brought in by the movers and shakers, little towns. And so, you know, oh, this professor over to the university is science is top. The people and solicited by him. And so then, you know, always and then they all invite you, right? Because they got to have a lecture every week. And so these are the people in town who are the prominent people and it’s it was invariable not to marry up never told anybody this but and so that’s how it all accumulated in medical school the access right to go right there and talk to patients in the hospital who had recently been resuscitated. And so that’s how it all developed. And it quickly became aware that there’s patterns to this. It’s not idiosyncratic. And the way it works is the way I think is there are about 15 to 20 elements. If you take think of thousands of cases of this and have now is like there’s about, you know, on the order of 15 to 20 elements that you can see just by looking you know and the it’s not everybody has all of these things it’s one person might have two or three or four or seven or eight or nine. Some people with these extremely lengthy cardiac arrest have this whole panoply, and it seems to correlate pretty nicely with how long they work and this apparent state of death, the ones with the extremely lengthy cardiac arrest, or more likely I’ll tell you the whole panoply, the way it begins the most commonly is people say, I heard my doctor say, he’s dead, we’ve lost it, he’s gone, or the doctor or nurse, somebody else. But to me, you know, I just this is the comment I’ve heard all over the world and multiple different for, you know, like little slight verbal differences. But it’s so I would have never been somewhat like this when I heard that doctors say it was dead because all the sudden people say they they leave their bodies. It’s like you’re sending the stone back. You’re looking at it from a distance, typically a bomb. And people say that they can understand perfectly what the doctors and nurses or other people present are communicating, not through their auditory sense. They say they’ve begun. They’re aware of what these people are thinking. And that from their point of view, first, they’re puzzling. How can it be? And here I am up here, I’m looking at me down there, know, what is this? And they. They realized that they can’t communicate with the doctor or nurse. They tried to say, What is this? And nobody could say, Me, no, and nobody could hear me. I tried to touch them to get their attention. I just went right through that make contact. So then at some point, the realization comes out of this spiritual death, where then began transition into some other kind of realm of consciousness or realm of reality in which they say words immediately fail, that you just go into this zone that is beyond words, and that nonetheless it’s people seem to resort instinctively worldwide to the same framework of expression, even without, you know, saying it. Still saying it’s beyond words. The way they put it, they say, and became aware of a passageway or a tunnel or to recall where I went through this and I came out on the other side into this incredibly brilliant and warm and lovely light. And that, you know, I speak sleep. I say light. I could just well, say, well, it doesn’t make any difference which way you say it. And this comfort piece people say that they see or in the presence of relatives or friends of theirs who’ve already died, you’re there to be there in a greeting committee. And it’s always wondered if they have little. Well, I’m just kidding that I used to be maybe that way, but didn’t make these lapse. But they say that it’s not like you see a physical body. It’s it’s like. But it’s recognizably your loved one you can tell by. There is a form. It’s. But not material is, I guess, the best way of saying it. And, you know, the by the memories and personality. And then at some point, as people often say, everything else just disappears. And they are surrounded by a. Holographic panorama, for want of a better term, which is that, first of all, that time stands still. We are here, there’s no time before and that you are surrounded by this panoramic view of every single thing that you have ever done in your life, which you see. Then from our double perspective, you know, not just from the perspective and what you were doing, but rather from the viewpoint, empathic viewpoint of the other people who are involved with that site like here, certainly. And this panorama you see, not just for you, your side of it is how that was received. And all of this is timeless, right. And it’s very often and the presence of a being of sheer compassion and light, the Christians tend to say Christ just and say God or an angel, or some people just say a light being of light. It’s like it’s presence of compassion. It sees everything. This is far beyond words. But they say when you’re trying to break out, you have to say it’s like it’s as though he ask the question or the being asked. It was, How have you learned to love? Mm hmm. Yeah. And that and, you know, various formulations so that the focus is isn’t love. And so, incidentally, I want to pause here for a moment to, you know, I it’s logic is a dale. It’s like as I said in life, it’s like my first book. I came into this inquiry from the point of view of a person whose interest in this and logic and philosophy of language. Mm hmm. Very. Both of which are completely essential to interpreting these kinds of experiences. But. And I’ve lost track of what I’m saying. They were brilliant. So before about. [00:51:41][548.1]
Brilliant Miller: [00:51:42] Sure. So we were talking about some of the commonalities that people who have these experiences share. Then you went to this about logic, which. [00:51:52][9.6]
Raymond Moody: [00:51:53] Right. And this state. This panoramic review. Yep. And let’s just hit the pause button here and think for a moment about this. And you know, it’s right now with the logic we have, it’s and we cannot make the valid, logical inference that there is life after death. That’s a reality. And but one thing we can make an inference here, just based on what we know about these life reviews, which is absolutely astonishing and astounding in my bent. And its significance. And that means that at least for some of us, life is a two phase process. Right. You lead life forward first as the actor or protagonist. Then time stands still and you look at the same events through the eyes of the other witness. Wow. And that and I mean, that is just and it’s apparently true. I’ve tried my best tested. And where is there an error I’m making on that? You know, and but I can’t think my way out. It looks to me like, at least for some moments, life is a process as strong. Well, then. All right. But then people have got to come back and question is how they come back. Something I have no idea. I was in this light also and I was back on to operate. I have no sense of transition. Some people say I was told I had to go back. Some might say in there, it’s not your time, you’re not finished yet. You’ve got to go back. You’ve got things left to complete, which is they’re not told what that is, which is you can imagine the frustration. But then as these people’s lives move forward, they often look back and say, Yeah, I see now why I had to cut back the money and not make sense of it. And then a third group say that they were given a choice, that they could either stay where they were and they could go back to the life they’ve been leading. And not surprising, all the ones I’ve dealt with made a choice to come back. And it’s it’s invariably in my experience, it was more on behalf of somebody else than for themselves they wanted to step. But the most common reason is they say, I wanted to stay, but I just went and went back with my kids. I had small kids. Left to Rise is the most common. Sometimes there’s a couple of times it’s been that they were just finishing their training and they’re helping profession like nurse or, you know, whatever, and that they they chose to come back to complete that. But it’s it’s it’s always, it seems on behalf of somebody else. Then when they come back, you see the predictable changes. By the way, some people go on much beyond where I’ve described, which I sort of related to a little bit earlier in saying these different realms, this layered reality, which was a little bit I appreciated that. And when I got close, I could see how it was beginning to separate, not just into just like almost you’d see like when you watch a set. You know, go down. It was something like that. You could see these layers and all of it. My sense of it, all of it was. To me, education is what it was about. This is often in this regime, people say that the interest, the focus of interest is the, you know, the love. But people always say many, many times it’s it’s always the same kind of. Formulation, which is that when there were scenes in my life that I learned or dedicated my life, my intention to learn that this being would sort of slow down some slight slow down of the focus and and the thought not in words that would come that that that this is interesting. And that this it’s not that even when you come over here this process content and that George Rich you said it very eloquently I’ve heard the same thoughts from many people these that as this process of learning is something he said I gather that goes on quite literally for eternity. Amazing. [00:57:12][319.5]
Brilliant Miller: [00:57:14] Well, thank you for for sharing that and breaking that down. This leads to one of the questions that I’m really eager to ask, and it’s taken me about an hour to get here. But but it’s this in my research of this work of near-death experiences that people who come back almost universally report three things a decreased fear of death, an increased appreciation for life, and a greater sense of purpose. [00:57:40][26.7]
Raymond Moody: [00:57:42] There you go. I would say as they’re coming back, they say whatever they were chasing before, I’ve been chasing. Now, some people chase sex or power or money or five. But whatever they chase, they say that when you come back from this, you realize what this is all about is learning to love. Another thing people say it has related to the purpose is people say that I shortly thereafter I went down to the local university signed up for a course in inspires. That’s a process and knowledge it eliminates the fear of death. Not that they would want to die in a painful, unpleasant life. It’s just. It’s there’s no more fear of death. Yeah. So you’re usually art this occasionally people or become artist interest. Well, honestly says a. [00:58:37][55.4]
Brilliant Miller: [00:58:37] Lot and then that makes sense, right? If you can’t describe an experience in the words but you feel you want to share something, whether it’s music or or painting or dance or something. But so the question I have is this if if this is such a common report or phenomenon that people come back and they have these what I would say these benefits. Right. Of no longer fear death and that as they did, they they appreciate things so much more and they have more clarity and a specifically around loving. The question is can we or how can we have that same kind of transformation without having to die for cross over. [00:59:19][41.4]
Raymond Moody: [00:59:21] Yeah. I’m not so sure. Brilliant. And I you know, I think there’s several domains to that. To thinking about that. It’s. Jesus once said, I think it was said, John, but it was in a certain context. But this is I think it’s a very powerful message. He said, I don’t write for the world. And he said, I just pray for the ones right around me that I have responsibility for and see the way I see. I feel so terrible about people in Somalia. Right. But I it’s beyond my comprehension how you would go about solving something like Somalia. And it’s vain and ridiculous for me to sit around and try to formulate some plan for God to do for Somalia and send it up to him as a prayer request. Although I just see multitudes of people with no taste and red hats proclaiming that same kind of thing about me. And I’m sorry for the. But I just. Try to ask God to help me with my problems. And I know that I’m not competent and it’s my same universe for a slight, direct to the prayer and take care of the kids. And, you know, I may as I’m said that I’m tired of my father can’t take care of me on behalf of them is the way I am looking at it. And so in regard to the question you ask, I’m not really good on the big picture on how this could be used to say. In terms of I understand the social value that could come from it. Now I do. I mean, to some degree, except that what people are saying. But I don’t know how that would translate into. I just have no idea. But but here is one thing I could say. Brilliant with with the greatest confidence. Because not me. Because I’ve hammered this out since I was a kid and throughout my career is a philosophy professor and psychiatrist. But I think what is false, what is really and I absolutely claim now with the desire to be rigid with in a way I’m not saying find a book, set out a new ideology here or to pat myself on the back. But rather what I’m saying is that in my opinion, there is a major, confirmable, verifiable breakthrough in the genuine, rigorous, rational investigation of the question of life after that. And then it is confirmable in the sense that anybody who works through this and their own. And follows the argument and does the mental exercises that come with it. We’ll be able to, in their own minds, to cross over that very. Psychological and logical barrier that. Separates this life from that. Now, I immediately want to say this is not for new age believers with the new version of. No, this is not something magical that I can wave a wand. This is a sort of course that I worked out beginning in 1969 through throughout my teaching career and workshops and like. Which is that it’s just God. I just am so grateful and embarrassed about the comments from the many students now. It’s just so nice. But the what the end of this is for the question that you’re and are discussing meralco’s question of life after death. Is that in the real world? Not quite that. Not the world of parapsychology. These people who are deluded by their pseudoscience or and nice people. This is not a personal these are dear friends of mine and they know my point of view. All right. But it’s just it’s it’s an incoherent statement to say that in 2022 that science could contribute to the consequent mindset for death. That’s just ridiculous to anybody really wants to think it through rather than just want it to be as they think it it or want it to be. But those things aside, all of that kind of and this is addressed even also especially to the so-called skeptical community who are not skeptics, but who are you know, they say all this is, you know, and there those are good people to write, you know, a little caustic and satirical, but nonetheless, you know, but nice. These are my dear friend, Paul KURTZ, not lunch call. He was the founder of these side cops or, you know, the skeptics, as they incorrectly call their humanists. That’s what they are. And they don’t even know who peer. And you can’t be a skeptic unless you know who. But. But anyway, think. What are the real problems of life after death to be a realist, were stated very brilliantly by Plato, who said that you got to have the story because the notion that’s so obscure, so you’ve got to have some sort of story to get it started. And they had the same ones that got on my body through time. And he said, But even if you had a zillion bazillion stories that wouldn’t add up to a rational proof of an afterlife, you need some set of concepts to link the narrative accounts to the statement that there’s life after death. And and that’s the narrative concept problem. Right. And then David HUME, the great skeptic of the 18th century, who clarified the notion of causation and induction. So if you ask about his opinion about the afterlife, Question said, and if you think this through, as I say, the line you’ll see is exactly right, he said. By the mere light of reason, it seems difficult to prove the immortality of the soul. Well, there isn’t much left. And then he goes on to say, Some new species of logic is requisite for that purpose and some new faculties of the mind that they may enable us to comprehend that logic. And that is the real deal. Because if you look at the nature of logic, it’s it’s predicated by Aristotle on on literal made sense. Just like there there is life after death if they are literal in their self-contradiction. Right. The point is there we can’t. And so the logic we use doesn’t compute when you’re dealing with something that doesn’t fit into a coherent statement. And so and that’s not to say anything bad about the question of life after death. Some of the biggest questions are still unintelligible. And so as the early the early 20th century philosopher, great philosopher said, it’s like the real problem, we said is intelligibility. We think we know what life after death creates these images. But when you get down to try to state what you’re talking about, it falls apart. So. So I. Ramanathan Then I have solved that problem and I have worked out a launch of a new form of logic which you can master just by going through it. It’s just it’s obvious once you get over the psychological blockade that you will immediately put up in front of it. But it works. And so what I learned how to do this gradually through of course, I put this together, developed a series of exercises that enables my students to think logically about nonsense, things that not make sense, because the whole notion is of a logic of nonsense is counterintuitive because you just think that nonsense is an absence, right? But now there is a great fallacy in that in our collective mind, which if you think of this as the level of ordinary, meaningful language, the commonsense view is nonsense is down here. Right. It’s something someone was in the real world. It’s the opposite. This nonsense is something up here. It’s a secondary form of language on top of the one we have now that’s very easily demonstrable, even though it’s counterintuitive. All right. Let me just let me show you that you have a faculty of your mind that you did, but which you can exercise now for the first time. Okay. David HUME said we need some new faculties at the moment. Right. And a new species of logic. And here’s here’s we’re beginning our logic. We think of nonsense as something absent or vacant. But now listen to the following sentences. Twas brilliant, the sly. They told us to go and gamble went the way. Now listen to this next one. Holiness pierces the vestigial lipstick spot, and that’s it. Now, listen to this next one. That cannibal new man just ate was the last one in this county and now had thoroughly deficit possessed. Or I could go on to a but. I could go on and on all day or have many days it. But at some point I would be taken to the mental hospital, I realize. But just kidding with that one. But what I’m getting at here is that there is a structured thing, right? And where I came to realize this was reading nonsense books as kid. And if you think how in the world is Raymond Moody getting from the most, you know, the most important spiritual questions of existence to non-science? Let me read you what we need to recite for you. My favorite lines from Dr. Seuss. All right. And he had this you know, we all know the alphabet books for the kids that always end in Z, Z from Z. Right. So, yeah, Dr. Seuss and his version of this, his is gone on beyond Z is alphabet books. And it’s one of the early answers. In the places I go, there are things that I see that I never could spell stopped with the Z. I’m telling you, this is you’re one of my friends. My alphabet starts your alphabet bands and it really does. It is. As soon as you wake up to this, you start realizing the significance of nonsense and the spiritual quest. COHEN What is the sound of one hand clap colossal Layla in the Kurdish and Christian tradition, which does I’m trying it does take you into an astonishing, ecstatic state. It the role in science alone in science nonsense is a placeholder. How is it the Stones concert? One time and I was just stunned just like and I loved Elvis and how thinking, you know, he was singing this song and he suddenly it was very visible. He forgot the words, but he did. And this lady just started utter nonsense. And as far as I could tell, nobody else noticed it because I was against it. But he was just filling in until he could remember the words. And that’s how we do in song. It’s like, Doctor, are the wonderful Japanese American scientists from New York who’s always on TV. What’s his name, Doctor? You would know. I’m the physicist. And I was seeing one of his programs on the Discovery Channel once, and he was talking about how, if you take the thing, the two most powerful explanatory theories ever define the quantum theory, and that the relative general relativity theory and you combine the equations for it, you get you it is nonsense, just complete nonsense, unintelligible. So it’s like we in not in science, we hold on to nonsense where until we can get to the more clarity on it’s just and so so that in 4 minutes you see this and it’s so counterintuitive I now but there’s great advantages that comes from learning this and you can do it easily. It’s like this. What I do is now I have these exercises where the students would learn these different types of nonsense, and then they would say, Well, I’d say, write some of your own original examples of this, right? Then reflect on how did that affect you? Write about that, then go on to another form. Now this form, now you write your own. And so what the generations of students reported just spontaneously this. They say that what they experience in doing these exercises is that they can actually feel the wheels and their minds turning in whole new ways that never even thought of. Now, where this relates ultimate, but at the end it has all kinds of psychological implications and stuff in the meantime. But but where it ends, or the point of view of those who are interested in the near-death experience is. That too, to incorporate in your mind this logic of how to think about things that don’t make sense, that when you happen subsequently later to have a near-death experience, then you won’t be as candid. It takes a little bit to explain, but if somebody is in a clear state of consciousness and they accidentally, accidentally bumble into talking nonsense, they won’t correct themselves when the coach says, you guys pair up, you guys pair up in threes. Right. And Hey, Coach, this pair up needs to. So, you know, the coach will. Correct. Right. But so in a in a near-death experience, somebody is then is going to try to articulate that, will say that to say that there is no space and no time and no words, and then to say that I got out of my body and went through a tunnel into like Turkey and returned to my body, came back to life. That that’s a nonsense account. Right. Because if there’s no time and no space, then the travel narrative is meaningless. But that doesn’t mean it’s not a fact. Abraham Lincoln, when he was president, he was you know, he was surrounded with a solemn state ceremony. And everybody is showing this very, very grave situation. And so the president’s. Part of the ceremony called for him to mount a horse and to lead a procession away from the scene. But when he did it, the horse picked its own back hoof up and got a common the. So the horses bouncing every night, shocked into silence. So unfair for the Frenchman to be in this undignified position. So Lincoln looked down at the horse and said, What? You’re getting all I’m getting off. And the crowd just dissolved into laughter. And as nonsense, he tried. But nonetheless, it brings that vivid image to your mind. So. So somehow in that situation, I conjecture. Then I figured it would happen. And it already had. It’s a barbed wire out there. And you tell this monster that. [01:17:39][1098.2]
Brilliant Miller: [01:17:39] Doesn’t it doesn’t surprise me at all. [01:17:41][1.7]
Raymond Moody: [01:17:42] Well, this is a man who is beyond brilliant. I’m sorry. I use your. But what I mean. And I wasn’t referring to you, but, I mean, he’s just astonishing. He’s. He’s. Anyway, some years ago, he went to one of my seminars and he is an artist and some just. And so he he said that then some years later, he developed H1N1 and was in the hospital for six days. I think you said said several cardiac arrests czar member couldn’t eat for six days. Lost his leg again for me. Wow. And in calling to tell me about his near-death experience said it’s like he was his voice was very weak. But it’s true. But then all of a sudden, his voice changed and just went off like energy and rain. And when I was out there, he said, my mind went back to that nonsense seminar. And and and he said, I saw that what you were saying was right. Sit and wait. But it’s it’sit’s you can’t comprehend how that world is connected to this world unless you take on intelligibility into account. Well, now, that’s the first one I know. But so many people now are acquainted with this and integrated into their medical practice. What do you mean? Well, as soon as you start thinking about this, you go to your patients. You realize people who are delirious talk nonsense. But as this specific type of nonsense. It’s what I call categorical nonsense. Or the people who are severely stressed were not even being injured. They’re brought into the emergency room because they saw an action, something they’re not injured. Trying to get a straight story from is nonsense. Right. Or people who are intoxicated with mercury like the man. And it’s like nonsense, but it’s a different type. People who are schizophrenic talk what are called neologism. Right. Nonsense. Words made up the veils. I was in France at 85 and talking to a colleague of mine and I said that when French schizophrenic patients make up nonsense words, do they sound like French words? And he said, Yeah. And I said, Well, the reason I ask. And he said, his side is one. I noticed that when English speaking patients make up not sets words, they sound like English words, which shows that even in the chaos, there’s a structure, they’re still following rules. So all of this information is important for for medical doctors, for psychotherapists, for attorneys, even. I mean, a lot of the people in my seminars were attorneys because, you know what they’re into as critical thinking. And then they think that and they wonderful intelligence folks. I mean, thank you, guys. You know, I just hate it the way that’s been criticized the last year. But these are the nicest nerds I’ve ever met with. I mean, I guess, you know, they got to get you know, they got to be squeaky clean to get those charms. And and they are warm nerds for this now. But oh, yeah. Every one of my was talking to one of them, a couple of them out. One night and I was saying I had to bring up cot. I was talking about sidereal astronomy. So how you know, when you bring up a name or something just to get acknowledgment from the people, I can’t, you know, and the gentleman said, oh, yes, the critique of Pure Judgment is my favorite book. And the Romans started talking, learned about that and 10 minutes of pure reason. And what I’m getting at is that these are wonderful folks. And for whatever reason, you know, they’ve got they’ve had me a couple of times to talk to their experts there and about this. So, I mean, I gather that they asked me more than once names that I don’t think they would make the same mistake twice. But you’d want to know what they’re interested in then. Yeah, but at the same time, you know, you’re, you’re grateful that they wanted to talk to you about it more than once. Yeah, sure. So my point is here is that, folks, we are not and not too distant future. We will have some new kinds of accounts of near-death experiences. [01:22:46][303.8]
Brilliant Miller: [01:22:48] Something to look forward to. [01:22:49][1.0]
Raymond Moody: [01:22:49] We already have plenty of them. Get through the Aristotelian lens that make it a travel narrative. Not too far distant future. Or have others that are framework from a different framework. And by triangulating, we’ll have whole new insights into life after death. That’s what. And by the way, I am not a book salesman, but for anybody who’s interested in getting those, it’s I have printed this up this couple years ago this is making sense of nonsense by Lou L one is that and it has all the exercises and there you can read through it and you can actually work these exercises which tap into these sort of faculties, your mind that you have that you didn’t know you had. [01:23:35][45.4]
Brilliant Miller: [01:23:36] That’s great. That’s a great resource for anyone who’s listening and wants to know more, who wants to do this to actually pick up and do so. That’s awesome. Well, Raymond, just a few more questions, if I may. And the one that my mom wanted me to ask, she was insistent, was about judgment after death. Right. She said, as I was describing a little bit of the the experiences people report. Judgment wasn’t in there. And she said something like, oh, there’s got to be judgment. But will you talk about whether or not there’s judgment or what your take or understanding on that is? [01:24:17][41.5]
Raymond Moody: [01:24:20] Yes, I said and judgment. I would say yes, that one judgment and that it’s that people take it as judgment, which I you know, I can understand that point of view. But I in my case, I realized it was education. And how should I put this in near-death experiences? People say, I remember George Richey, who was raised in that sort of strict fundamentalist thing. And then he said there he was at 20 years old, surrounded by all these, among other things, sexual indiscretions. Right. And they said and his religious background, that was that was sure to get you into the hell. And so there he was. And everything was out in the open. And there he wasn’t present to Christ. And Mary is 1976. And I think George looked at me and my wife, he was sort of reminiscing about this and he said, There they all work. And he said and he didn’t even mention. Right. And so it’s it’s number one, it’s not focused on the things that people had imagined that might be like the sexual thing. So whatever. And I think that there is a conceptual breakdown and trying to it’s normally the the the missteps in life that that people who are like on the TV and programs so focused on everybody else going to hell, you know, that that kind of mentality and it’s usually from some doctrinal point. You know, I remember down in the South, it was that there was a violent, hateful division. The Baptist. I saw this and some believe that you had to baptism with going upstream and others downstream and this nature of hatreds and everything. And so, you know, and it’s not that it’s all right. It’s not anything about your doctrines. Right? But it’s what I hear. But but, you know, that’s what the the TV preachers and I’ll try to tell you. Well, then that all goes. What? I remember this. This fundamentalist minister, one of the really tough sects down in Georgia, was raised in it. And he said he said in his life review, he said, I was surprised to find that God wasn’t interested in my theology. He just. He said, now it’s all about this love thing and what you. So, I mean, it it gets very complex, but it is a conceptual gap for me to say that because of some ideological French infraction during the period of Islam. You know, several decades of life that you could be tormented for eternity and endless, you know. And that is that. That has nothing to do with justice. Now, the image of justice is the blind fold and the scales. Yeah, but look over here. You know, 30 years of ideological entrenchment over here now. [01:28:01][221.2]
Brilliant Miller: [01:28:02] Eternal damnation. [01:28:03][0.4]
Raymond Moody: [01:28:03] A bazillion years of mentation. You know, that’s that’s just that’s not justice. That’s nonsense. You know, so I’m getting at here and and so this is what I said some years ago. I’m sort of making this vague to avoid hurting. Some years back. I did. And like a series of I’m kind things to a person over a period of time and then I was just on can’t back. And then years later, decades later, I find myself in that same situation. Only this time I’m the victim. And now, isn’t that true? My torment is about ten times. So it makes sense to say it that. I mean, really now ten times more volume. See, but that’s part of the educational process to turn out the moment. I cannot say now, but it was education was. I’m being punished. No, no. This was not something that altered the fabric of the universe. Was God punishing God was and you can see how it felt and all through this work. Snake Thank you. I mean, and this is the point because you cannot, you know, understand what you inflicted on somebody else until you experience it. It’s just of the education. It’s a necessity that you’ve got to see the other side. [01:29:51][107.5]
Brilliant Miller: [01:29:52] There’s no teacher like experience. No doubt. [01:29:54][2.2]
Raymond Moody: [01:29:55] No doubt. God is one of them. I mean, I think that this stuff is it’s it’s it’s woven together in a narrative. Like what? Yeah. Yeah, that’s. [01:30:08][13.4]
Brilliant Miller: [01:30:09] A theme for sure. The narrative and the stories. [01:30:12][3.0]
Raymond Moody: [01:30:13] Mm hmm. [01:30:13][0.1]
Brilliant Miller: [01:30:14] Well, Raymond, we’ve been talking for almost an hour and a half, and I want to respect your time, and I want to check in on a human level as well. How are you doing right now, by the way? [01:30:23][9.5]
Raymond Moody: [01:30:23] The way I’m doing this, I if I hold this up, the company sends me. I’m just. [01:30:32][8.9]
Brilliant Miller: [01:30:38] Okay. Well, if if you’re okay with it. What I’d like to do before we conclude is is to transition our conversation. And there’s so much more that I’d love to ask. But here we are in this human realm that seems we are temporarily limited. So what I want to do is with your with your blessing to move to the Enlightening lightning round, which is a series of it’s ten questions. But the aim is for them to be relatively quick. And then the last part, I just want to ask you two questions about writing. [01:31:17][39.3]
Raymond Moody: [01:31:18] Okay. [01:31:18][0.0]
Brilliant Miller: [01:31:20] If that works, you’re good with that. [01:31:21][1.4]
Raymond Moody: [01:31:22] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I’m so good. Okay. [01:31:26][4.1]
Brilliant Miller: [01:31:27] Okay. Question. So here we are in the Enlightening lightning Ram. Question number one please complete the following sentence with something other than a box of chocolates. Life is like a. [01:31:40][12.8]
Raymond Moody: [01:31:43] A play of which you are the protagonist. I got on the screen. [01:31:50][7.3]
Brilliant Miller: [01:31:52] And got, as you say, the screenwriter. [01:31:53][1.1]
Raymond Moody: [01:31:54] You want me to say it again? [01:31:55][1.2]
Brilliant Miller: [01:31:56] That would be great. So I’ll just I’ll read the whole I’ll say the whole question again, and then you can you answer and I will interrupt. Okay. So question number one, please complete the following sentence with something other than a box of chocolates. Life is like a. [01:32:10][14.1]
Raymond Moody: [01:32:12] Educational movie with God as the scream of. [01:32:15][3.7]
Brilliant Miller: [01:32:18] Okay. Thank you. Question number two What’s something that you have changed your mind about? [01:32:24][6.0]
Raymond Moody: [01:32:29] Okay. Say it again. [01:32:30][0.9]
Brilliant Miller: [01:32:31] Okay. [01:32:31][0.0]
Raymond Moody: [01:32:32] And I’ll ask the question other than completion. [01:32:35][2.8]
Brilliant Miller: [01:32:36] So yeah. So I’ll add in the last few years, so. Okay. Question question number two. Question What’s something you’ve changed your mind about maybe in the last few years? [01:32:47][10.8]
Raymond Moody: [01:32:49] Well, one specific thing was I used to be sort of dismissive of people who prayed, nailed, they prayed. And I thought how they to act like you flattering God. But then I had an experience myself with the presence of God and I couldn’t stand up. So I’ve changed my mind about that thing, about see where it came from. [01:33:12][22.5]
Brilliant Miller: [01:33:13] Okay. Well, thank you for that. Question number three, if you were required every day for the rest of your life to wear a T-shirt with a slogan on it, or a phrase or saying or a quote or a quip, what would this you’re say? [01:33:27][13.5]
Raymond Moody: [01:33:31] Keep guiding my life. [01:33:32][1.1]
Brilliant Miller: [01:33:35] Okay. Question number four, what book, other than one of your own, have you gifted or recommended most often? [01:33:42][6.7]
Raymond Moody: [01:33:44] Plato’s Plato. Yeah. Is the it’s the beginning of the whole Western intellectual tradition about life after death. And it is the foundation point of the Christian theology of life after death. And that’s why the early church fathers, they incorporated it. [01:34:05][21.1]
Brilliant Miller: [01:34:07] Okay, question number five. So you have traveled a lot in your life. What’s one travel hack? Meaning something you do or something you take with you when you travel to make your travel less painful or more enjoyable? [01:34:20][12.4]
Raymond Moody: [01:34:24] You. I must say that I’m such a homebody. The travel was just always such stress. I miss my family the whole time. I just really can’t think of anything. I just have to grin and bear. I don’t like traveling. [01:34:37][13.8]
Brilliant Miller: [01:34:39] Yeah, I’m. I’m with you there. And the older I get, the less I like it. Okay, question number six. What’s one thing you’ve started or stopped doing in order to live or age? [01:34:50][11.4]
Raymond Moody: [01:34:50] Well. One thing I started or stopped doing. What comes to my mind is that I stopped eating meat in my early forties, and I’m regret to say it was not on principle of harm to the animals. It was just that I began to lose my appetite for meat and and began to appreciate more. It’s like I noticed that after I ate the next day, I would feel good, bad. So I just stopped eating meat mostly. But once in a while, if I have every six months I have a craving, but not much. Wow. Yeah. Okay. [01:35:41][50.8]
Brilliant Miller: [01:35:43] I have a feeling. [01:35:43][0.4]
Raymond Moody: [01:35:43] I’ve never had this effort of well needed exercise. I mean, I’ve just been at a time, like, 10 to 14 miles every day in medical school. Wow. From the track. But, I mean, that’s just a constant. I got to not run anymore. I got to walk. Yeah, but I don’t do it out of virtues. Addiction is addiction, pure and simple. [01:36:07][24.0]
Brilliant Miller: [01:36:09] Well, good for you for staying active. Okay, question number seven. What’s one thing you wish every American knew? [01:36:16][7.0]
Raymond Moody: [01:36:20] You think? Yeah. I wish every American knew the wives very well. People like Franklin and. And Jefferson and Adams and Monroe. I mean, those were just rather almost preternatural people who worked at it. It’s like Ben Franklin. Life is, I guess, the most fascinating life of anybody in. So I think that to this. To know about where the founders of this country, what kind of beings they were, for want of a better term. [01:37:12][52.0]
Brilliant Miller: [01:37:13] When I write. Thank you for that. Question number eight. What’s the most important or useful thing you’ve learned about making relationships work? [01:37:20][7.5]
Raymond Moody: [01:37:23] I am just not the person to say because I’m just so bad at it. I got it. I just. The older you get, the more you it just you lose interest in yourself. I’m just tired of remedy. And I say that to audiences. I say to young people, when you must be depressed, but the people aren’t age. Yeah. You know, it’s just ego equals pain. That’s a simple formula. You know, it’s it’s absolutely true. And that’s not I’m not saying that because I went up on the mountain and burned the incense and now lay down on a bed of nails. It’s just that it’s like I just found near kill myself with ego. But, you know, one ego trip is another. That’s why I realized I told that to a a swami, our Hindu swami a few years back. I said, one ego trip is another. Yeah, right. It is. You know, I mean, jealousy was mind, you know, they’re all kind of like dreams. They’re so real when you’re not. Yeah. And one is, you know, I don’t want an ego trip anymore. So my my strategy is to keep my ego, my self-esteem, as low as possible. All right. [01:38:43][79.6]
Brilliant Miller: [01:38:44] Question that. Number nine. Aside from compound interest, what’s the most important or useful thing you’ve learned about money? [01:38:50][6.4]
Raymond Moody: [01:38:53] Well, I learned it from my friend. Milton Friedman. And well, this is what Milton said. He said, money can make you rich, not money. And Milton was my best friend for 30 years. And he was not. He was not there was too famous. Milton Friedman’s. And people were always getting mixed up. Milton, man. Milton worked for the government. It was for he worked for the Senate. He was a prominent journalist and he was a special assistant to President Ford. And they he always said there are two Milton Friedman. One has the economic solution and the other as the problem. And he was the one from. And so Milton is he was. He lived there. And they say right near the mall, actually. And so he. He was one evening this. This lady called him from Harvard and she explained that she was doing her doctoral dissertation in economics on on monetary policy. And so she asked him if she would give he would give her a quotation for her disappearance. And he said, yes. He said, Money can make you rich. And she said and she said, Can I follow through on that? She said, Yeah, yeah. And I’m sure he informed her, but he was just a wonderful man. But, you know, there’s a lot of truth to it. Money can make you rich that much. I know. Yeah. [01:40:46][112.3]
Brilliant Miller: [01:40:47] I know. All right. So question number ten here in the in enlightening lightning around is if people want to connect with you, assuming you’re okay with them doing so or they can learn more from you. What would you have them do? [01:41:01][14.1]
Raymond Moody: [01:41:03] Well, there’s several ways. I have a website Life After Life dot com. When my computer broke the other day and I took the crank of the side, I saw Thomas Edison’s trademark. So I don’t use the computer. But I you know, I am happy to give my a home address for those who want to write personally. Yeah. And how do you do this? Five, eight, eight, one. Old Summer Wood Boulevard, Sarasota, Florida. And the zip code I haven’t memorized yet. And I’ll stand up and get it is. Three, four, three, four, two, three, two. Raymond Moody, All Summer Would Boulevard, Sarasota, Florida and that zip code and then I have a website life afterlife dot com and and I am actually on some projects by the way brilliant. You mentioned that a lot of writers are listening to this. And listen, I don’t want to occupy your time here, but I have something I used with my I just think that some of the writers might be interested in this. And again, I swear at one group, this is. [01:42:28][85.2]
Brilliant Miller: [01:42:30] I think, people who listen to this and love books. So by all means, please share share away. [01:42:35][5.1]
Raymond Moody: [01:42:36] This is one that I have developed this over many years. And because when you teach logic, you have to get the students to appreciate the difference between literal language and figures of speech. So in my logic classes, I developed a way of teaching the figures of speech that makes it come alive. The students love and and it’s really fun for people who like words and know. And at the risk of sounding verbose. You have so much amazing knowledge in your mind that you have no idea you have. [01:43:25][49.0]
Brilliant Miller: [01:43:27] And you’re saying true of everyone. [01:43:28][1.8]
Raymond Moody: [01:43:29] Yes, yes, yes. That’s right. This is. [01:43:32][2.1]
Brilliant Miller: [01:43:32] And yet you are just flattering me. [01:43:35][3.2]
Raymond Moody: [01:43:35] But you don’t know. You don’t know that you know it. And. And yet. When it’s pointed out to you, you recognize it as something that know you never thought about, but, you know. And so that’s how I teach the figures of speech. Right? And these consist of information about the different figures of speech and examples, but also exercises like personnel, say, for example, like listen to the following three sentences. A farmer holding a shotgun said, Get off my land, stranger, or I’ll write sentence number one. Sentence number two. In the movie, the character’s is dying. And as his dying says, I buried the treasure. Ponder that. And then the third is that in a wedding ceremony, in a wedding reception, the guest holds up the toast to the bride. And groom says, You’ve been such a dear friend and trails off right now. The question is, do you recognize that? And of course, you. Right. But you never thought about right. And that means that you’ve had what you’ve done here is you’ve moved your pre conscious knowledge into your conscious awareness and now you need a name for it. Opposed the piece and a definition that the figure of speeches, symposia, thesis is stopping in mid-sentence, leaving this thought unsaid and breaking up in one sentence. And we all know this, but by bringing this information up, there’s nothing in here that that are done that way. And it’s for exercise. It’s and it’s I swear this is not published. Anybody who just because you’re a writer wants to copy of this, I can get them Xeroxed and I’ll be happy to send them that way. It’s I don’t have it in any sort of computer form, but I can make copies of it. And how much I don’t know how much the Xerox would be, but it’s, it’s. 114 pages. It’s for the students over the years of love. So, you know, you might be. And also the nonsense book. It has exercises in there where you learn to write these different types of nonsense. Wow. [01:46:17][161.9]
Brilliant Miller: [01:46:18] That’s great. Very generous of you. Thank you. [01:46:20][2.1]
Raymond Moody: [01:46:20] And by the way, in terms also, obviously, this emphasizes the the psychological, the medical, the legal, the spiritual implications of these different triggers of speech to like Jesus is where you say, as God is my witness or God help me is a figure of speech where you bring down the witness of heaven or God. You know, they all have deep spiritual implications, too. So it’s a fascinating film study. [01:46:55][34.9]
Brilliant Miller: [01:46:56] Yeah, no, no doubt. Okay. Well, thank you for that. And one thing I want to let you know is that as an expression of gratitude to you for sharing so generously of your time and your experience and your wisdom. Today, I have made a micro loan to an entrepreneur, a woman in Indonesia. Her name is Rosita. She’s 43 years old. She’s married. She has a daughter. She runs a business selling food. And so this loan, I won’t make any interest on it, but the person who facilitated it in Indonesia will and hopefully it will be part of a virtuous cycle and doing good in the world. So thank you for giving me a reason to make that microloan. [01:47:38][41.6]
Raymond Moody: [01:47:39] Thank you so much for doing so. [01:47:41][2.3]
Brilliant Miller: [01:47:42] Thank you. That’s my pleasure. Well, the last the very last part of the interview here is, as I said, I just have two questions about writing. And the first question, it’s maybe kind of a broad question, so feel free to answer it in any way you want. But it’s would you be willing. So now you’ve written many, many books, more than a dozen, as I understand. Right. And so my question for you is, would you describe for me and people listening, what’s your process? How do you how do you do it? How do you go about actually completing a book? [01:48:17][34.4]
Raymond Moody: [01:48:18] Well, I can describe my process, and I can also give you a statement that Paracelsus, the founder of Hydro Chemistry, and about that. And he said and I’m sorry about that, you know, the the old language and the gender thing. But what he said was. A man who desires to write a book first creates a sort of heaven in its. From which they work desires flows into. And that’s apropos. I’m sure a lot of people respond to that. So that’s how I’ve used that over the years. And a lot of people say, Right on. And I say the point, too. And maybe that’s not exactly the way I would put it, but this is how it’s it’s that, number one, the creative process is just the greatest thrill there is. It’s just like that flow of creativity. It’s just the hire. Once you get into that slow. Wow. Right. And and then you can really appreciate the great views of the music. Right. Because it doesn’t seem to come from you or from Harry. Yeah. And and. It seems to me I open up. It’s more like turning some a switch off than it is like turning anything off. I just sort of the the. Intense. Whatever it is that switches off and then you get flooded, you just take it. You swept into something that seems to be coming from vaguely up via I mean, every batch. I’ve heard this so many times. Some artists, the visual artists, it’s like they sort of gesture way and it’s. That’s right. That’s fails. It’s like a stream coming from elsewhere. I’m was a comedian for a while and and still am so my friends that still do those things and how how world people want to say it’s an imaginary world but I mean no yeah. I mean it has its limits. I mean I could say false things about man of the ten year or this pic or. Here. Go. I mean, you know, there is it’s wrong is false to say some things about right. It’s just like what I mean is when you can say something false about something, that means there’s something to it. It’s like, for example, if I can say that it’s false that Santa Claus carries two pistols and and whips little children. See, that’s false. So therefore, there’s something just like Santa Claus, say. And it’s if you’re a creative person, you realize that these these people that come to you, like Dr. Mitchell, it’s like they have their structure. It’s not that you’re making up, because if you just made something up about them, that was you could tell they false. I know it’s complicated, but it’s the creative process is just like a trip. It’s a it’s an experience of some other dimension of reality. And I hear that all the time from artists. So and that how I set it off is there’s things to set up. One thing is I always have a pair, like a notebook and a pen, but not that table. That’s a must because we want to get into that, hit the gadget stage, see ideas come, which is then. [01:52:32][254.2]
Brilliant Miller: [01:52:33] Sleeping and awake to. [01:52:33][0.7]
Raymond Moody: [01:52:34] Write it. Having a gorgeous state is to state this when you’re drifting into sleep. We’re still awake at there’s ways. And that’s a place where creative ideas come. Often people say they hear nonsense words or they hear or they say the often surrealistic image, surrealistic imagery, images and such. And people get that into it. You can mine it for creative purposes, for example, you don’t have to be so complicated in your arrangement as as Edison was. But this it’s basically his friends would say that when he would be working on a problem, sometimes he would get this saying, look on his face, and they’d say to everybody, I better go take a catnap on that one. And he would go throw himself up in a recliner, lean back and put two ball bearing little ball bearings in his hands, and he’d put them over his amp. And then beside him on the floor is would be metal dish. And so what he would do drift into that hit negotiate state. You can learn how to do it. I mean it’s just it it’s just a matter of letting yourself go and you learn how to sort of monitor and to and so that you can go into it and you can and you can stay there, see. But then if you go to sleep, then your muscle goes to zero. So his arms would fall out and wake him up. So that was his device. Robert Louis Stevenson He he, you know, you can put your arm up in a certain place where it just balances out much it and he would use and he would go into the into the hypnotic magic state to get his he brownies was what he called of this some people really do literally that and he said that the brownies that topped them but then he would get his visions and then if he would go to sleep and wake him up. So Aristotle with a similar thing and it really works. It’s like this like the pen and pad works that will put it in your mind. That and sometimes the ideas you wake up, oh my God, that’s changed the world. You just write, man, you can’t wait to wake up next morning. Then when it said, Work it up, says Holiness trounces all the musings now or nonsense. But sometime, you know, you get good ideas. And so those are things that I use for writing and it’s just the. And reading a lot, you know, I mean, it’s a process. You just got to constantly read new things because the the constant and, you know, streaming in of new ideas, it triggers all that stuff down there. It gives it all gets processed and comes back out in some way. That’s creative stuff. [01:55:41][187.2]
Brilliant Miller: [01:55:42] Yeah, that, that makes sense. So part of what I’m hearing, if I may kind of interpret or maybe reflect back, so one, with this reading, as you’re saying, you’re you’re feeding yourself, you’re stoking yourself perhaps, or you’re providing fodder or raw material for something new to emerge, to grow and to emerge. So that’s one to with the pen and pad by your your bedside, there is both an intention and a readiness to receive or capture something when it comes right. And then the other with the the hip McGoldrick state there’s this again, an intention, a resolve and effort to actually access something and perhaps like bring something back. [01:56:29][46.5]
Raymond Moody: [01:56:30] From that will be receptive. Yeah. [01:56:33][2.7]
Brilliant Miller: [01:56:33] So that’s great. Thank, thank you for, for sharing that. So the last, the last time. [01:56:39][5.3]
Raymond Moody: [01:56:40] I. [01:56:40][0.0]
Brilliant Miller: [01:56:40] Realized I sort of had two questions about writing, but I do have two final questions. So one is just if there’s anything I know in this almost two hour conversation, we’ve covered a lot of ground. But I wonder so I’ll just tell you the two last questions now, and you can address them in any order. Is there anything that we haven’t talked about that you want to talk about that you think would be of service to to people listening? That’s that’s one question. The last one is what advice or encouragement would you leave anybody listening with to help them complete their own creative endeavor? So those two things final kind of give a final thought and. And the encouragement, those two things. [01:57:18][37.1]
Raymond Moody: [01:57:19] Right. You know, we’ve talked about so many things. I’m sure there are things, but I just can’t. Really boring. And they say, Oh, what I will say is this here’s a one that I do, he says. And it’s like, Oh! My When I am working on topic a write, I’ve usually read quite a bit off topic, but when I start writing I just think that launching into the graduate writing project on topic, I don’t read on top. I read on peripheral topics and I developed two years ago a process and that stick almost invariably do it. Maybe once in a while I relapse, but I’ve bumped into it where I don’t. I just ask God to guide and see. I’m just lucky. And it’s funny how things just pop up. And then, for example, I’m writing now on just different views of the afterlife around the world and the different cultural views, which I don’t know much about. And so I just saw an advertisement at the University of Chicago for this book entitled Glass While I’m Interested and then everything gloves. That’s something I’ve read about I never thought about or read about. So I got this book on glass and Oh my God. And in addition to all these other things, like the image of the lost glove, once you got the image of the gods, then you’re always going to be seeing lost gloves everywhere you look. Yeah. And the crazes and the gloves are not gloves through the centuries. All right. And all of these fascinating things in themselves and then written. That this tribe in Alaska of. I knew it, I guess. Had a dance which took you over to the other side, and it was through glass. They had these magnificent gloves made and the little the clickers were made of the big spurs that when the shamans would shake them in a certain way, they would create this apparently unearthly noise sound should just sweep them away. And the after lights is so, which is like a shamanic procedure, right? So see, what I mean is that I just I read all around the town and then everything is like then you see, oh, it makes the writing process so much richer. Yeah. You to just have all this information which may not, you know, how could that be connected? But all of a sudden it is. I got to recommend to the knowledge seekers out there the most amazing series. Just look up the website on this, folks, for people like me who are interested in everything. About five years, six years ago, I discovered this series by the Oxford University Press, and it’s there’s over 600 of them now, and they’re called the series is called A Very Short Introduction to and they’re all about 120 pages in length on the average. But none of the academies is all is all edited out. They read great. And they’re just it’s just like all the college courses that you wish you could take and a very articulate, good scholars and all. And I’ve just now that I have read and I know there’s not I’m not a collector mentality kind of person, but I happen to know that I have read 111 and I know that is that they are they’re tiny. And so if you put them on that shelf along with the other books, they get drift into the back. So I’ve just put them down on the same shelf on 111 and they’re every one of them. It’s just I’ve hardly ever found one that wasn’t and for that wasn’t really, really terrific. And so look at their website and you’re going to it’s just an amazing kind of new learning system, I guess, that they’ve developed. And for people like me and you just want to learn that. [02:02:18][299.1]
Brilliant Miller: [02:02:19] Yeah, I realized that it was, I don’t know, maybe five years ago I was in a seminar, I think, and it was one of these. It was like, imagine your ideal future and what are your goals and things like that. And I remember when I realized that I want to be omniscient, and I remember when I said that out loud for the first time it seemed strange to me like I was like, Who wants to be omniscient? I’m like, I do. [02:02:46][26.8]
Raymond Moody: [02:02:47] Yeah, because it would be so much fun, right? I mean, for a curious person, what I just want is for is. Yeah, and, and it’s like people with near-death experiences. I remember a very accomplished artist. Jane was her artist I knew who had had a very profound near-death experience. And I remember Jane saying that she said that it happened, that she had this near-death experience. And she said she tried to tell her parents about it and she said, oh, no, that was just your imagination to get out of that. And and, you know, she just shut up about it. Then years later, that life after life came out and her parents are saying, look, we read this great book about this figure, and she said, mom, she said, you remember when I had that I almost died. I had that child. She said, no, no. Mother said, No, no, that can’t be, you know, because it’s a hard thing to imagine that your kid is the point of death. Right. But but Jane, among many others, that there is this part of this experience where you are the knowledge of the universe is accessible to you. I guess it’s basically the same way George Richard would say. Right, that that that the Institute of Knowledge that everything’s kind of set, you know, accessible there. So that in a way, I mean, a kind of omniscience is maybe it’s not all present at the same moment, but then there’s no time anyone. Right. But that in that state of consciousness, as I gather, knowledge is accessible to you. Evan Alexander said that. Coordinates and the where he was, he said it was like with two coordinates for love and information, love and knowledge. That’s interesting. Plenty of time and space. It’s a different coordinate system. [02:04:52][125.4]
Brilliant Miller: [02:04:53] Wow. Amazing. Well, Raymond, I have really enjoyed this conversation. I enjoyed reading the books. I mentioned paranormal and God is bigger than you saying God is bigger than the Bible. Right. Final thought, final encouragement. What would you what do you leave listeners with that might help them either get started on a creative project they’ve been ideas on for a long time, or maybe they’re in the middle of, and for whatever reason, haven’t brought it to completion just yet. [02:05:24][30.1]
Raymond Moody: [02:05:25] Prayer is. Yeah. It’s like, God is this. And the prayer surrender is nigh. Be like not God, get me started and doing step one, just slide to turn it over. It’s I just made that discovery myself, just like God was wrestling with this problem. And I just. I’m just obsessed what’s going on? And I finally I just turned it over to God, God use it, and then it all just sort of happened and it just went. And so I was telling George Ridgeway, and he said, the most powerful prayer is surrender. It really is. And it’s like the way I do, that kind of thing. It’s like, God lead me on this and lead me to a good purpose on it and you know, help me gets with the flow and so on. And sometimes I’ll tell you the truth, I mean, I just feel so bad about this and why, but sometimes I have actually asked God for a word I really have. And, you know, it seems to come back to me, you know, what can I say? And it’s just so grandiose to say that God is helping me in my writing project, but it’s like, you know, God is watching the same things I’m watching. I love that saying of Mr. Eckhart. The eyes with which I see God are the same with which God sees me. So I say, just sort of formulate a little bit, say give it up, just surrender it. So am I saying that. [02:07:13][108.6]
Brilliant Miller: [02:07:14] That makes that makes sense and it doesn’t seem any more? It seems logical to me that one might pray to God for a word. If one believes that God is the creator of everything, why wouldn’t God be willing to. [02:07:26][12.2]
Raymond Moody: [02:07:26] Do this also as a companion? [02:07:28][1.3]
Brilliant Miller: [02:07:29] Yeah, absolutely. It’s just a continuation of that. Of that initial work. [02:07:32][2.9]
Raymond Moody: [02:07:34] Yeah. Friendship. Yeah. Yeah. [02:07:35][1.6]
Brilliant Miller: [02:07:37] Well, Raymond, thank you so much. I am just repeating that I’ve really enjoyed this. [02:07:42][4.7]
Raymond Moody: [02:07:43] And. [02:07:43][0.0]
Brilliant Miller: [02:07:44] I look forward to the time our paths cross again next. I don’t know when there, but I feel confident it will happen. And if you find yourself in Salt Lake, please do let me know if it works for your schedule. I’d love to connect with you in person. [02:08:00][16.0]
Raymond Moody: [02:08:01] Same here and thanks a love to everybody. Listen to this, folks. Thank you so much. And I hope you’ve gotten something out of. [02:08:01][0.0]
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